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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle

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you know there's explanation for

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everything that occurred in the

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Rendlesham forest incident that involved

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aliens at all it was completely silent

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it comes right over our head it's so a

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classic flying-saucer really standing in

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the clearing he turned over to my father

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and held his hand and he looked in his

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eyes and said we're not alone welcome to

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podcast UFO for our live show we're live

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every Wednesday at 8 p.m. Eastern

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Standard Time on the dark matter radio

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network please remember to visit the

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website podcast UFO comm for past

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episodes blogs and forums during the

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show feel free to participate live in

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our chat room and don't forget to Like

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us on our very active Facebook page

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hello and welcome to the show and we

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have a humma dinger

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of a show for you tonight first of all

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will be coming up with Alejandro Rojas

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with UFO updates then we have about a 10

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minute or so pre-recorded clip with Greg

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Coolidge and Kirk Ward and they want to

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talk about their new pilot called

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skyward it's really interesting it's a

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kids show but involves a UFO podcast and

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it was partially inspired by the show

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they got in touch with me about that so

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our guest this evening is via phone very

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excited about him I heard him on

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Alejandro's show he's great it's Richard

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theme and he was part of a UFO history

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group that spent five years writing a

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book called UFOs UFOs government no I'm

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sorry

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Wow UFO history group which spent five

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years UFOs and government sorry about

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that

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a historical inquiry on top of 50 years

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of research gathering documents from the

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government and elsewhere should be a

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fascinating guest I'm really excited

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about that so a couple of quick

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announcements remember if you become a

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member

50
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subscriber for only $2 or

51
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more per month you get not only the full

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shows and archives but you also get the

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everything else show in the podcast feed

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and this week's show was pretty really

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good it was about the Dyatlov pass

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incident a very fascinating case and I

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spoke with a girl named Teddy and she

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has a number two website if you search

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the Dyatlov pass incident her website

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comes up number two very interesting

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Mountaineer and Explorer and has a

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really good insight on what possibly

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happened also I will be up at the shag

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Harbor 50th anniversary I'm going to be

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recording a live show on YouTube as well

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with Jordan Bonaparte that's on

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September 30th of this month and that

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will also be on the live feed as well so

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if you want to tune in live that

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information will be up on our website

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during the week if you can't help us out

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you can always listen to the whole show

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for free at 8 p.m. Eastern Standard Time

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on Wednesdays on podcast UFO calm or on

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YouTube you can also listen for free on

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the Dark Matter digital network Thursday

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nights 10 p.m. till midnight and on

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Outworld fleet radio on Saturday nights

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at 6 p.m. that's it for me Alejandra

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what's going on how are you oh I'm doing

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good good

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you had an exciting time out there at

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Devil's Tower

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so yeah that was a lot of fun yeah I

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can't wait to hear about that it was

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gorgeous out there the tower is so

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strange it's one of those things just

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like lots of lots of national monuments

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where you have to see it where pictures

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don't do it justice it's just such an

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interesting place so it was a lot of fun

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the hosts were great the hosts Bob Olsen

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owns the Best Western there and then

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laurie tucker is a someone who lives in

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the area and and put together this group

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to sponsor this whole event and she's

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into to ufos and stuff and then there

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was let's see richard who is in charge

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of wyoming MUFON and then Mark Dantonio

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there was Debbie Eagle my

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Chuck Zukowski and our good buddy Mark

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Dantonio and Travis Walton all we're out

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there in fact we visited the monument

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with Travis and did the walk around and

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that was a lot of fun so really cool and

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the Sun was there which is one of these

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UK tabloids Nia and I complain about

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these a tabloid so much all the time

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including this son but the writer has

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been writing a story about the different

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talks every day this week so today she

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wrote about Travis yesterday was a

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really good one she wrote about Mark

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Dantonio which with a story that he

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shares amongst people but doesn't really

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share publicly so much but now this

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story's public which is really cool and

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he's happy about that which is

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essentially when he was on a sub because

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he works with a navy building models and

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stuff and he was on a sub when they they

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right next to the sonar guy when they

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were tracking something moving very fast

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and I 200 knots or something crazy yeah

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yeah something crazy so and they called

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it a fast mover and he said later on he

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asked one of the guys in the Navy about

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the fast mover program and he said don't

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ask about that again right and it was

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kind of funny because I when he asked

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the CEO or the CEO on the sub hey hey

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what was that I think it co said are you

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having a good time on the ship and Mark

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said yeah this has been great he said

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well let's just keep it that way

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so another indication that sorry we're

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not talking about it so yeah that was

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really good stuff so she's gonna have me

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in a story I think tomorrow or the next

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day because my talk was about I did two

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talks one of them about Steven Spielberg

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and then one of them about strange alien

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cases and if you've seen this talk you

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know one of my cases is about lord

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mountbatten

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and mont benton is important because he

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is the uncle of prince philip the

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husband of Queen Elizabeth then Prince

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Philip was really he saw Lord

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Mountbatten as as his father figure

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through life and mont Benton was very

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important he was Admiral the fleet he

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was the last vice

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ROI of India so if you watch a Gandhi

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he's portrayed in that an extremely

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important person but he was also very

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much into UFOs and he believed a UFO

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landed on his property so you'll be able

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to read more about that in that story

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but a story I wrote about was with Lee

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Spiegel and have you heard my interview

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with him you'll know some about it but

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this is Spiegel essentially talking

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about how when he was putting together

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and I hopefully you've had him I'm

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talking about this but the United

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Nations oh yeah Lisa ko was a behind you

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know getting the United Nations to do

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this AV presentation to try to get them

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to do something about UFOs and Spielberg

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actually invited him in Hynek and valet

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to offer his help so I wrote a story

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about that I'm gonna put it on the

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Huffington Post this week also and I do

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have a video that I played at my talk

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that I'll be putting up on YouTube of Li

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going over that so that's really cool

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and today speaking of UFO stuff today I

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wrote a story this is a great story if

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you haven't heard it and maybe you've

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heard this one so Nick Pope who worked

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for the Ministry of Defense UFO desk

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when he showed up to work in 1991 there

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was a poster of a UFO he said it was

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this large diamond-shaped metallic

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object with a jet in the background so

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this amazing picture and I guess he said

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it's the most spectacular UFO photo he's

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ever seen and it was hung hanging up

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there on the wall but eventually it got

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taken down and it disappeared and the

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story behind this is really interesting

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because it's a real picture these

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witnesses took this picture in like 1990

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and in the Scotland area and they when

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he asked what is this picture they

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explained the whole situation they said

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we think it's real we think it's really

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you know some 80 foot in diameter craft

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that was was seen and they don't know

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what it is they didn't believe it was

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the Americans they didn't believe it was

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belong to the British so his boss even

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and said it must then belong to and

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pointed up

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so really interesting case and what's

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really cool too is that UK's channel 5

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work with the Nick to recreate this

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poster and so it's an incredible image I

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posted that today so yes those are some

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of the stories out there going on

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otherwise another really good story

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today was in the herald-sun from

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Australia because James box has been out

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there working on his latest documentary

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Lee Spiegel I was helping him actually

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write the script but James Fox is out

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there interviewing people about this

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Westall UFO case this famous Australian

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case that he's going to include in his

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documentary oh I'm glad he's including

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that one it's an a real great one well

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thanks so much Allah Hondo and we'll see

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you next week right all right yep we'll

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talk to you next week all right have a

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good one thanks a lot I appreciate it

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see ya bye alright everyone so I'm going

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to play this clip right now hang in

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alright so I am pre recording this bit

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right here and I am on the line with a

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couple great guys

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Greg Coolidge and Kirk Ward now they

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have a kids series pilot it's now on

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Amazon and it's called skyward and I

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recommend you check it out it's a lot of

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fun we're gonna be talking about that

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I'm gonna read you a quick synopsis of

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what it is three friends host a secret

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underground podcast exploring paranormal

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sightings in their tiny town of Wildwood

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Oregon together Piper Curtis and Ira

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tried to prove the existence of aliens

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and can't help but become personally

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involved with the cases of people who

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call in their show so Kirk and and Greg

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welcome to the show thanks so much

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thanks for having me for having this

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00:11:06,169 --> 00:11:02,999
Martin thank you yeah and so why don't

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why don't you tell us a little bit how

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you got inspired to do this and how it

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all came about

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well Greg and I have been working

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together for years and as a writing team

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and we always when I first met Greg he

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would share little ufos things with me

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like send me stuff and I was like oh wow

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he's into this too you know so we would

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send each other different things about

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sightings and we just found it

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fascinating and I think speaking for the

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both of us were not really big like

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sci-fi buffs but there's always been

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something about you know that we bonded

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about the universe and that we're not

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alone and there has to be something out

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there and we'd always had talked about

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doing a show you know with aliens and

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you know like Close Encounters and et

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and The Goonies like that type of tone

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and and we batted around some ideas and

271
00:12:07,579 --> 00:12:04,350
then when my daughter was born I was

272
00:12:09,949 --> 00:12:07,589
reading this article on UFO radio shows

273
00:12:13,039 --> 00:12:09,959
in the LA Times I remember because I was

274
00:12:14,299 --> 00:12:13,049
up around the clock I was rocking on

275
00:12:17,749 --> 00:12:14,309
this chair and I read this article about

276
00:12:19,579 --> 00:12:17,759
UFO radio shows and radio shows around

277
00:12:22,850 --> 00:12:19,589
the country in it like I said to you

278
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:22,860
earlier Martin we're fans of the coast

279
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:25,410
Coast Guard Bell so I brought this

280
00:12:30,260 --> 00:12:28,050
article in and and you know we have a

281
00:12:32,420 --> 00:12:30,270
big idea board in our office at Sunset

282
00:12:35,330 --> 00:12:32,430
Tower studios and we always you know we

283
00:12:37,460 --> 00:12:35,340
our eyes pop you know like I pitched

284
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:37,470
this thing to Greg and he's like yes and

285
00:12:40,970 --> 00:12:38,730
that's kind of what you're looking for

286
00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:40,980
in a partnership or writing partnership

287
00:12:46,580 --> 00:12:43,620
is the other person sparking to it and

288
00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:46,590
so it was kind of on our board for quite

289
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:49,290
some time and we batted around different

290
00:12:55,550 --> 00:12:53,130
ideas and you know originally it was

291
00:12:58,430 --> 00:12:55,560
going to be more of like midnight caller

292
00:13:02,390 --> 00:12:58,440
meets x-files and we started really

293
00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:02,400
developed that never really kind of just

294
00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:04,710
didn't ever really crack but we always

295
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:07,320
kept coming back to it and then one day

296
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:10,650
Greg said I got it and usually when he

297
00:13:15,950 --> 00:13:13,050
says I got it and he snaps his fingers I

298
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:15,960
got it that guy what if we make this

299
00:13:21,410 --> 00:13:19,650
more of kids at a podcast and then it

300
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:21,420
was like it was like a whole new

301
00:13:27,110 --> 00:13:24,510
explosion we started like ah that's it

302
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:27,120
and we kind of another similar idea

303
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:31,290
about kids this other kind of idea the

304
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:33,570
similar tone and we kind of took a lot

305
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:36,450
of that and I remember the day when it

306
00:13:39,580 --> 00:13:38,250
all kind of came together because it's

307
00:13:42,050 --> 00:13:39,590
one of those things they like within

308
00:13:46,190 --> 00:13:42,060
4550 minutes you're like yep this is it

309
00:13:48,890 --> 00:13:46,200
this is it this is it so it was it was

310
00:13:52,010 --> 00:13:48,900
really cool and then we've met our

311
00:13:55,370 --> 00:13:52,020
friend Sabrina wind producer on the show

312
00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:55,380
she you'd know her from Reba Desperate

313
00:13:59,570 --> 00:13:58,170
Housewives devious maids and she was

314
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:59,580
going we'd met her and we were like here

315
00:14:03,050 --> 00:14:00,720
we should find a project together and

316
00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:03,060
she heard the log line for this and like

317
00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:05,310
oh man this is incredible and she came

318
00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:07,920
to sup with job and judge who it's a big

319
00:14:12,290 --> 00:14:10,260
kids director and we had a meeting with

320
00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:12,300
him and he immediately responded to it

321
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:15,660
and then we went out as a team and where

322
00:14:20,540 --> 00:14:18,720
I think we went to just Amazon and

323
00:14:22,610 --> 00:14:20,550
Nickelodeon and Greg correct me if I'm

324
00:14:26,090 --> 00:14:22,620
wrong I think we just went to those two

325
00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:26,100
places and they both wanted it we and

326
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:28,710
give me what Lee that's right and Disney

327
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:31,680
see and that Disney wanted it as well

328
00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:33,570
but they were like we don't do this kind

329
00:14:39,050 --> 00:14:36,720
of stuff oh really Wow yeah

330
00:14:41,179 --> 00:14:39,060
huh and then we as we wanted to keep it

331
00:14:43,490 --> 00:14:41,189
very grounded wanted it to be very

332
00:14:48,019 --> 00:14:43,500
Spielberg en you wanted it to feel very

333
00:14:51,949 --> 00:14:48,029
real and feel like you know that adults

334
00:14:53,749 --> 00:14:51,959
and kids would enjoy it equally and so

335
00:14:55,189 --> 00:14:53,759
the tone of it is very hard to hit and

336
00:14:57,079 --> 00:14:55,199
that's why Disney said oh we don't do

337
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:57,089
that kind of stuff on our we do it for

338
00:15:01,550 --> 00:14:59,040
live-action for feature films but not

339
00:15:03,889 --> 00:15:01,560
for our television station anyway sorry

340
00:15:05,629 --> 00:15:03,899
thank her no no that's exactly right and

341
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:05,639
that's why we ended up going with like

342
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:08,490
Greg goose and with Amazon because they

343
00:15:13,369 --> 00:15:11,610
they allowed us you know to have the

344
00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:13,379
tone that we wanted which is exactly

345
00:15:17,629 --> 00:15:16,649
that it's it's it's real it's grounded

346
00:15:19,879 --> 00:15:17,639
as heart

347
00:15:21,710 --> 00:15:19,889
you know those father and daughter

348
00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:21,720
scenes are real and then there's the

349
00:15:27,139 --> 00:15:24,529
comedic element you know the comedic

350
00:15:28,970 --> 00:15:27,149
elements are still grounded but come out

351
00:15:32,990 --> 00:15:28,980
of the story and come out of kind of the

352
00:15:36,199 --> 00:15:33,000
fantasy of you know a children's story

353
00:15:38,030 --> 00:15:36,209
so yeah that was kind of basically how

354
00:15:41,809 --> 00:15:38,040
it all came together there's a lot more

355
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:41,819
and a longer timeline but in general

356
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:44,370
yeah yeah and now a quick question you

357
00:15:50,059 --> 00:15:47,040
you said you listened to the podcast my

358
00:15:52,670 --> 00:15:50,069
podcast is that something you did before

359
00:15:55,549 --> 00:15:52,680
you thought of this or was this all in

360
00:15:57,650 --> 00:15:55,559
your research it was yeah I mean we've

361
00:16:00,290 --> 00:15:57,660
always been listening to stuff but it

362
00:16:02,059 --> 00:16:00,300
was weird when we were developing the

363
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:02,069
show there's a couple podcasts and a

364
00:16:06,439 --> 00:16:04,410
couple of articles and so if we're

365
00:16:09,019 --> 00:16:06,449
reading and we just liked the how your

366
00:16:12,590 --> 00:16:09,029
show is so grounded like we're like yeah

367
00:16:13,970 --> 00:16:12,600
yes yes if she had a podcast like we

368
00:16:16,249 --> 00:16:13,980
never we're not going to show a lot of

369
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:16,259
the podcast in the series you know

370
00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:20,160
because that's not super exciting but we

371
00:16:24,110 --> 00:16:21,870
were like you know to show the moments

372
00:16:26,509 --> 00:16:24,120
of when she's actually communicating

373
00:16:28,519 --> 00:16:26,519
with people that are calling and we

374
00:16:31,429 --> 00:16:28,529
wanted to make it grounded and make it

375
00:16:34,850 --> 00:16:31,439
conversational and real because a lot of

376
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:34,860
them we found you know just to

377
00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:37,050
conspiracy for us where we really liked

378
00:16:41,660 --> 00:16:39,120
what we liked about you you and your

379
00:16:44,090 --> 00:16:41,670
podcasts Martinus you have real

380
00:16:48,189 --> 00:16:44,100
conversations about finding the truth

381
00:16:50,630 --> 00:16:48,199
and and and you know it becomes like a

382
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:50,640
really just honest open

383
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:52,290
about what's out there and what are the

384
00:16:57,140 --> 00:16:54,810
possibilities so yeah yeah that's

385
00:16:58,970 --> 00:16:57,150
Granger live stuff - I like the live

386
00:17:02,180 --> 00:16:58,980
show I've seen it a couple times

387
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:02,190
oh yeah the live stream as far as I

388
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:04,050
think it's it's great that you have the

389
00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:05,760
resident skeptic

390
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:08,220
you know Curtis yeah yeah he's he's

391
00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:12,329
really funny and so what whose idea was

392
00:17:16,850 --> 00:17:15,150
it to have the gumball machine alien you

393
00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:16,860
know I mean with all the eyeballs it's

394
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:18,360
kind of like a gumball machine don't you

395
00:17:24,050 --> 00:17:21,839
think yeah yeah I mean great you could

396
00:17:26,180 --> 00:17:24,060
take take this I mean it was it's always

397
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:26,190
a collaboration but I have to say I

398
00:17:35,870 --> 00:17:32,010
think Green was mine no no no I think

399
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:35,880
the eyeballs were your idea exactly

400
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:36,960
remember you saying maybe they go out

401
00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:40,290
like Scouts so yeah right right right

402
00:17:45,140 --> 00:17:43,140
right well yeah we don't to make it a

403
00:17:46,850 --> 00:17:45,150
little bit different than things that

404
00:17:49,130 --> 00:17:46,860
you've seen before and stuff that you

405
00:17:52,580 --> 00:17:49,140
would sort of predict in your mind and

406
00:17:55,430 --> 00:17:52,590
and and we thought that yeah like an

407
00:17:57,530 --> 00:17:55,440
eyeball amongst eyeballs with like you

408
00:18:00,020 --> 00:17:57,540
know hundreds of be sent out into the

409
00:18:00,710 --> 00:18:00,030
city to to be looking for something in

410
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:00,720
particular

411
00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:04,250
yes no and we have some ideas about what

412
00:18:10,010 --> 00:18:07,200
that particular eyeball may or may not

413
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:10,020
be attached to later in the series

414
00:18:14,690 --> 00:18:11,850
yeah that's what I was going to say it's

415
00:18:16,460 --> 00:18:14,700
sort of at the end like a cliffhanger a

416
00:18:19,580 --> 00:18:16,470
little bit so you know for sure that

417
00:18:21,260 --> 00:18:19,590
yeah you know the eyeballs well I don't

418
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:21,270
want to do any spoiler because I do want

419
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:23,370
some people to watch this of course but

420
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:25,440
at the end it kind of leaves you hanging

421
00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:28,770
where you know there could be some left

422
00:18:35,330 --> 00:18:32,310
behind while say it that way right

423
00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:35,340
definitely yeah we also wanted with the

424
00:18:40,340 --> 00:18:36,900
do with the creation of the we

425
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:40,350
collaborated with Todd Tucker and Greg

426
00:18:43,490 --> 00:18:42,330
forgive man yeah I always forget

427
00:18:51,490 --> 00:18:43,500
everything what's the name of Todd's

428
00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:51,500
studio do you remember the real idea I

429
00:18:57,770 --> 00:18:55,110
can't I can find out anyways we

430
00:19:02,630 --> 00:18:57,780
collaborated with Todd Tucker who's an

431
00:19:04,190 --> 00:19:02,640
amazing puppeteer makes creatures he did

432
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:04,200
he did the Jim Covey

433
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:07,610
full body for patching the Christ and

434
00:19:13,250 --> 00:19:11,610
you know we really wanted this we

435
00:19:15,860 --> 00:19:13,260
labored over this creature for a long

436
00:19:19,250 --> 00:19:15,870
time because we wanted it to you know

437
00:19:23,060 --> 00:19:19,260
look like something unique that move

438
00:19:27,649 --> 00:19:23,070
unique that had a specific had a

439
00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:27,659
specific mission when it came here a lot

440
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:29,190
of times when we watch the sci-fi stuff

441
00:19:32,509 --> 00:19:30,960
and you see the creatures we feel it

442
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:32,519
like wow people just get carried away

443
00:19:36,980 --> 00:19:35,370
and in all the things that all the

444
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:36,990
possibilities that the creature can do

445
00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:38,730
and how big they are and all this stuff

446
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:40,049
we're like we wanted to keep it really

447
00:19:47,180 --> 00:19:44,130
simple wanted to be scary but not like

448
00:19:48,919 --> 00:19:47,190
I'm gonna die any second scary right you

449
00:19:50,539 --> 00:19:48,929
know cuz because of the age range you

450
00:19:52,970 --> 00:19:50,549
know have to go from like six years old

451
00:19:55,269 --> 00:19:52,980
all the way to 16 years old so it has to

452
00:19:57,769 --> 00:19:55,279
play for like a much much bigger group

453
00:20:04,220 --> 00:19:57,779
illusion industries nothing that that's

454
00:20:05,899 --> 00:20:04,230
it is really great guy and built us you

455
00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:05,909
know built us the creature I mean we

456
00:20:11,389 --> 00:20:07,830
came in with a bunch of sketches and

457
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:11,399
ideas he drew it up and our production

458
00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:14,730
designer Richard Hoover who the amazing

459
00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:19,289
guy he did the original Twin Peaks Tony

460
00:20:25,310 --> 00:20:22,529
award-winner just incredible guy and he

461
00:20:27,980 --> 00:20:25,320
had he had input as well and we honed it

462
00:20:29,870 --> 00:20:27,990
down to to that and then you know the

463
00:20:31,279 --> 00:20:29,880
eyeballs spinning around in the head we

464
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:31,289
would that was like I supposed to be

465
00:20:38,389 --> 00:20:35,130
like a beehive so yeah yeah it was he

466
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:38,399
was a fun one to to create for sure yeah

467
00:20:44,539 --> 00:20:41,850
yeah but now it looks to me like it's a

468
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:44,549
pretty hefty budget you're working with

469
00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:46,850
there I mean it's a very very nice

470
00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:49,529
production and you know great actors and

471
00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:52,200
all I think that you're pretty serious

472
00:20:57,889 --> 00:20:55,500
and I do want to tell the listener check

473
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:57,899
it out and oh one of the things I

474
00:21:03,889 --> 00:21:00,720
thought that Curtis said was pretty

475
00:21:06,590 --> 00:21:03,899
funny that I wanted to repeat on this he

476
00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:06,600
said we've been doing this podcast for

477
00:21:13,279 --> 00:21:08,340
over a year and still have not found

478
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:13,289
proof aliens exist I love that I've been

479
00:21:22,970 --> 00:21:20,900
well well to a to an eleven-year-old you

480
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:22,980
know a year is yeah here's that's right

481
00:21:29,090 --> 00:21:27,210
right so that's right yeah excellent can

482
00:21:32,210 --> 00:21:29,100
you tell can you tell the listeners how

483
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:32,220
they would actually catch this and and

484
00:21:39,260 --> 00:21:36,690
also leave a review right yeah we know

485
00:21:45,980 --> 00:21:39,270
look at least it's called skyward if you

486
00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:45,990
go to amazon.com /tv

487
00:21:50,150 --> 00:21:48,030
pilots is that it Greg do you notice I

488
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:50,160
always ask for it I think you can just

489
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:53,250
type in skyward into your Amazon whether

490
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:55,290
you have prime or not you can just type

491
00:22:00,110 --> 00:21:56,970
the word skyward in and it will come up

492
00:22:02,299 --> 00:22:00,120
right right and and we ask that you

493
00:22:05,270 --> 00:22:02,309
watch it and yeah you know give it a

494
00:22:07,610 --> 00:22:05,280
give it a you know a review and there's

495
00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:07,620
five stars to choose from we've found

496
00:22:11,419 --> 00:22:09,990
that picking the fifth star when giving

497
00:22:13,730 --> 00:22:11,429
it five stars is the easiest because

498
00:22:17,570 --> 00:22:13,740
it's right at the end so a five star

499
00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:17,580
review yeah comment you know little

500
00:22:23,630 --> 00:22:19,260
things like it's a show for the entire

501
00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:23,640
family and and then you know share it

502
00:22:32,750 --> 00:22:29,520
between you and 3478 of your friends on

503
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:32,760
social media it was that bad yeah yeah

504
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:33,840
excellent

505
00:22:37,610 --> 00:22:36,000
alright guys well thanks so much and I

506
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:37,620
wish you all the luck in the world I

507
00:22:42,530 --> 00:22:40,050
really hope I hope that it gets picked

508
00:22:44,030 --> 00:22:42,540
up and I know how pilots can be and I

509
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:44,040
hope it gets picked up you really put a

510
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:45,090
lot of work into it

511
00:22:49,790 --> 00:22:47,760
take care guys well listen so much thank

512
00:22:51,980 --> 00:22:49,800
you Mark really appreciate it

513
00:23:01,010 --> 00:22:51,990
thank you so much for having us you bet

514
00:23:01,020 --> 00:23:28,360
[Music]

515
00:23:34,690 --> 00:23:30,669
all right we're dialing I'm not sure

516
00:23:38,110 --> 00:23:34,700
what's happening here it is hey Richard

517
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:38,120
Hey hi hi Richard theme welcome to the

518
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:40,640
show thank you very much we're on now

519
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:44,090
yes we are yes okay then I'll watch what

520
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:51,110
I say not like earlier yeah I I heard

521
00:23:55,269 --> 00:23:54,110
you on Alejandro show and I thought it

522
00:23:57,220 --> 00:23:55,279
was fantastic

523
00:23:59,620 --> 00:23:57,230
I've loved when people are really

524
00:24:03,850 --> 00:23:59,630
grounded and that's what I think about

525
00:24:06,370 --> 00:24:03,860
you and and your work but you have quite

526
00:24:09,850 --> 00:24:06,380
a background you've also been involved

527
00:24:12,190 --> 00:24:09,860
in the technology world do you want to

528
00:24:14,889 --> 00:24:12,200
talk about your background and how it

529
00:24:17,159 --> 00:24:14,899
how things morphed into your interest in

530
00:24:21,330 --> 00:24:17,169
UFOs or had you always had that interest

531
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:21,340
well I guess as a young person kid we

532
00:24:28,930 --> 00:24:26,210
growing up as I did more than 44 there

533
00:24:31,180 --> 00:24:28,940
was a lot of exciting stuff in the media

534
00:24:33,399 --> 00:24:31,190
then different when you say the media

535
00:24:35,529 --> 00:24:33,409
it's very different then I was very

536
00:24:38,350 --> 00:24:35,539
limited but I remember reading a book by

537
00:24:40,450 --> 00:24:38,360
Willy lay on space stations and it

538
00:24:44,169 --> 00:24:40,460
seemed very very exotic and and very

539
00:24:47,950 --> 00:24:44,179
futuristic as well as getting satellites

540
00:24:51,639 --> 00:24:47,960
up and so on so the world was expanding

541
00:24:55,389 --> 00:24:51,649
in terms of space and UFO reports were

542
00:24:57,850 --> 00:24:55,399
around and I think it's almost

543
00:25:00,039 --> 00:24:57,860
impossible certainly was for me to just

544
00:25:03,610 --> 00:25:00,049
ignore them and not be interested in

545
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:03,620
them so I read it read a bunch of books

546
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:07,370
and and and that was about it I read

547
00:25:13,389 --> 00:25:10,730
what I could but in 1978 I was an

548
00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:13,399
Episcopal clergyman then and I was in my

549
00:25:17,049 --> 00:25:15,200
first parish a small parish on the edge

550
00:25:19,930 --> 00:25:17,059
of Hill Air Force Base in Clearfield

551
00:25:22,450 --> 00:25:19,940
Utah and a member of the parish was a

552
00:25:26,649 --> 00:25:22,460
fighter pilot a guy with the real right

553
00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:26,659
stuff heavily decorated pilot and I was

554
00:25:30,430 --> 00:25:28,190
talking to him alone in the church

555
00:25:32,260 --> 00:25:30,440
basement one day and Close Encounters of

556
00:25:39,370 --> 00:25:32,270
the Third Kind was in the movie theaters

557
00:25:40,810 --> 00:25:39,380
then that was 40 years ago and I send to

558
00:25:41,380 --> 00:25:40,820
him that I had read people like Alan

559
00:25:44,980 --> 00:25:41,390
Hynek

560
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:44,990
or ejaculate and I said what I read is

561
00:25:48,130 --> 00:25:46,850
that you guys chased these things in

562
00:25:50,860 --> 00:25:48,140
your fastest fighters and you can't

563
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:50,870
catch him what's the story and what I

564
00:25:53,530 --> 00:25:52,610
remember is that he looked perplexed he

565
00:25:56,110 --> 00:25:53,540
looked serious

566
00:25:58,299 --> 00:25:56,120
he was pretty cocky guy you know walk

567
00:26:00,760 --> 00:25:58,309
into a room with his debts and a cigar

568
00:26:02,169 --> 00:26:00,770
and a flak jacket and people kind of

569
00:26:02,710 --> 00:26:02,179
gather around him he had that kind of

570
00:26:04,930 --> 00:26:02,720
authority

571
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:04,940
but he didn't look that way then and he

572
00:26:08,430 --> 00:26:06,110
said well that's right

573
00:26:11,590 --> 00:26:08,440
did we chase them and we can't catch him

574
00:26:14,289 --> 00:26:11,600
so that was the moment I experienced

575
00:26:15,909 --> 00:26:14,299
what you'd call a contextual shift and I

576
00:26:18,430 --> 00:26:15,919
think that's true for a lot of us that

577
00:26:22,740 --> 00:26:18,440
somebody we knew and knew well and whose

578
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:22,750
credibility was unimpeachable and whose

579
00:26:29,980 --> 00:26:26,650
authenticity and honesty was impeccable

580
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:29,990
told me that yes this is real so it

581
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:33,410
shifted from being fun and of general

582
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:37,130
interest and isn't this cool - Wow

583
00:26:43,270 --> 00:26:40,400
what's what's behind this what is this

584
00:26:46,659 --> 00:26:43,280
and how can I find out as much as

585
00:26:48,370 --> 00:26:46,669
possible about it now I was encouraged

586
00:26:51,430 --> 00:26:48,380
him and then I was a visible courage

587
00:26:53,770 --> 00:26:51,440
ubuntu 16 years and I never failed to

588
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:53,780
use the opportunity and there were a

589
00:26:58,750 --> 00:26:56,480
number of them during confidential

590
00:27:01,000 --> 00:26:58,760
conversations when people intimated

591
00:27:02,169 --> 00:27:01,010
something that made me think they might

592
00:27:05,740 --> 00:27:02,179
know something about it or had an

593
00:27:08,530 --> 00:27:05,750
experience to ask about it and so I did

594
00:27:11,230 --> 00:27:08,540
a lot of direct want to call it

595
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:11,240
interrogation but the direct inquiry of

596
00:27:18,850 --> 00:27:14,480
what people's experience was over time

597
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:18,860
and as I did that I what I call

598
00:27:25,390 --> 00:27:22,010
escalated my game that is I read the

599
00:27:28,270 --> 00:27:25,400
best people I realized there was a love

600
00:27:31,210 --> 00:27:28,280
really a lot of nonsense misinformation

601
00:27:34,270 --> 00:27:31,220
disinformation about this subject for a

602
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:34,280
variety of reasons I tried to escalate

603
00:27:39,250 --> 00:27:36,410
my game so that I was engaged with only

604
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:39,260
the best people and and as I did that

605
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:42,290
you kind of leapfrog up up the ladder a

606
00:27:47,190 --> 00:27:44,809
lot of the people who were well known

607
00:27:50,020 --> 00:27:47,200
and who were trying to make a living

608
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:50,030
about this writing books and so on were

609
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:53,090
not necessarily those people now that

610
00:27:58,660 --> 00:27:56,050
trajectory which include

611
00:28:01,960 --> 00:27:58,670
as I left the ministry to speak in

612
00:28:03,910 --> 00:28:01,970
rightful time 24 years ago and it was

613
00:28:07,330 --> 00:28:03,920
about above all the impact of technology

614
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:07,340
on society and people on the human in

615
00:28:12,220 --> 00:28:09,440
the machine what was this revolution

616
00:28:13,030 --> 00:28:12,230
we're going through going to do to

617
00:28:16,030 --> 00:28:13,040
identity

618
00:28:18,790 --> 00:28:16,040
and so on well that led me to doing a

619
00:28:21,580 --> 00:28:18,800
lot of speaking at security conferences

620
00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:21,590
and some some engagement with people who

621
00:28:28,020 --> 00:28:23,750
are in the intelligence community I'm

622
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:28,030
not a you know I don't belong to it I

623
00:28:36,730 --> 00:28:34,370
just traded on the AI I guess the habits

624
00:28:39,220 --> 00:28:36,740
in character that developed during my

625
00:28:42,370 --> 00:28:39,230
ministry years to engage with people

626
00:28:47,670 --> 00:28:42,380
one-on-one in confidential conversations

627
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:47,680
and so in those contexts more and more

628
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:50,960
came came to me and and I'm pretty good

629
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:52,490
synthetic thinker in terms of

630
00:28:58,150 --> 00:28:55,570
integrating disparate inputs

631
00:29:01,090 --> 00:28:58,160
distinguishing what I know I know from

632
00:29:04,390 --> 00:29:01,100
what I know I don't know and integrating

633
00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:04,400
it and articulating a synthesis and then

634
00:29:11,950 --> 00:29:09,470
I was very fortunate around just 2007 to

635
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:11,960
be invited by I was talking to John

636
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:14,330
Aldridge and he mentioned this group

637
00:29:18,970 --> 00:29:15,650
that was going to get together in Texas

638
00:29:24,130 --> 00:29:18,980
to plan to write some serious white

639
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:24,140
papers about the subject for for the

640
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,770
reason in part to to demonstrate to the

641
00:29:33,010 --> 00:29:29,360
world that it was a serious subject

642
00:29:35,050 --> 00:29:33,020
worthy of serious scholarly pursuit and

643
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:35,060
when we met what we concluded was

644
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:38,690
nothing short of a book would work now

645
00:29:43,570 --> 00:29:40,730
there had been a great deal of research

646
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:43,580
done prior to them we had a tremendous

647
00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:48,410
number of clippings and files Mike

648
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:51,350
swords the professor of Natural Science

649
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:53,930
at Western Michigan University and

650
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:56,210
Robert Powell who had headed up the

651
00:30:02,800 --> 00:29:59,360
chemistry department at AMD the chip

652
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:02,810
manufacturer were the two leaders of the

653
00:30:07,030 --> 00:30:05,330
team but there were people like Barry

654
00:30:09,230 --> 00:30:07,040
Greenwood who wrote clear intent and

655
00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:09,240
Shane Aldridge some project 19

656
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:14,100
47 who had been gathering documents and

657
00:30:20,670 --> 00:30:17,050
studying them with some real discretion

658
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:20,680
and finesse and subtlety for decades

659
00:30:27,620 --> 00:30:22,330
look I would say literally half a

660
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:27,630
century and we all contributed my part

661
00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:30,370
I'm always quick to say I have a small

662
00:30:36,930 --> 00:30:32,880
part but but a part that for me was

663
00:30:39,090 --> 00:30:36,940
instrumental in accessing and engaging

664
00:30:41,060 --> 00:30:39,100
with all of the material that over the

665
00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:41,070
five years it took to write that book

666
00:30:48,750 --> 00:30:44,910
came our way and then there were other

667
00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:48,760
writers who did chapters on other

668
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:51,670
countries and a great guy named Steve

669
00:30:56,580 --> 00:30:54,370
Purcell who did the thankless task of

670
00:31:00,930 --> 00:30:56,590
getting permissions and and not

671
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:00,940
including photographs for for which we

672
00:31:09,540 --> 00:31:06,640
could not get permissions and Mike Mike

673
00:31:11,490 --> 00:31:09,550
has been my mentor but I've engaged with

674
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:11,500
these other people and paid close

675
00:31:15,780 --> 00:31:14,770
attention I had a pretty good mind I had

676
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:15,790
taught English literature at the

677
00:31:20,460 --> 00:31:17,650
University of Illinois after getting a

678
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:20,470
bachelor's at Northwestern and a masters

679
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:22,570
at the University of Chicago and then I

680
00:31:28,140 --> 00:31:24,130
had another three-year master's when I

681
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:28,150
prepared for the ministry and I engaged

682
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:31,360
with people also in a lot of interviews

683
00:31:37,890 --> 00:31:35,440
I I used the structure of MUFON in

684
00:31:40,860 --> 00:31:37,900
Wisconsin to interview people

685
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:40,870
specifically and and and document what

686
00:31:47,660 --> 00:31:43,710
their experiences were and some of those

687
00:31:51,450 --> 00:31:47,670
some of those were astonishing really

688
00:31:55,970 --> 00:31:51,460
the end result of all that now 1978

689
00:31:59,280 --> 00:31:55,980
that's it's a lot of years 40 years of

690
00:32:02,280 --> 00:31:59,290
engaging with this subject by engaging

691
00:32:04,790 --> 00:32:02,290
with the very best minds and students of

692
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:04,800
the subject that I could find and

693
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:07,090
sitting at their feet and letting them

694
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:11,770
teach me I may mention Mike he is a

695
00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:14,290
terrific teacher I mean as a teacher he

696
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:16,270
was a terrific science teacher at

697
00:32:22,620 --> 00:32:20,050
Western Michigan University and he was

698
00:32:25,290 --> 00:32:22,630
willing to give me very gen

699
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:25,300
of his time and once we met for weekend

700
00:32:29,130 --> 00:32:26,850
and he invited me to ask whatever

701
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:29,140
questions I wanted to this was the

702
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:32,850
Koufos headquarters in Chicago and

703
00:32:37,470 --> 00:32:34,960
others others join that meeting

704
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:37,480
including the Marc rodiger pub popped in

705
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:40,690
and out and and the Murphy's from

706
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:44,490
Michigan at that time and a few others

707
00:32:50,370 --> 00:32:47,530
and it was kind of a private seminar for

708
00:32:51,570 --> 00:32:50,380
48 hours now at that point I had learned

709
00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:51,580
everything I could

710
00:32:56,370 --> 00:32:53,830
through the methodologies that described

711
00:32:57,900 --> 00:32:56,380
but that that was where I took all of

712
00:32:59,940 --> 00:32:57,910
the questions that had had raised

713
00:33:03,150 --> 00:32:59,950
because I thought what am I missing

714
00:33:05,610 --> 00:33:03,160
and what what turns out when you do it

715
00:33:09,090 --> 00:33:05,620
their ways in terms of what's public

716
00:33:11,670 --> 00:33:09,100
what's out here in terms of the data you

717
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:11,680
know you're not missing that much you

718
00:33:17,220 --> 00:33:15,130
you may not be missing that much we know

719
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:17,230
a lot of the data and that's what that

720
00:33:20,730 --> 00:33:18,730
the book to which they refer it is

721
00:33:23,850 --> 00:33:20,740
called UFOs and government historical

722
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:23,860
inquiry it's published by anomalous

723
00:33:31,410 --> 00:33:28,810
books and it's a terrific book it's you

724
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:31,420
know 600 pages long it's got about a

725
00:33:37,020 --> 00:33:34,090
thousand footnotes and every single

726
00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:37,030
footnote points to a government document

727
00:33:42,300 --> 00:33:40,150
or other primary source and so when it

728
00:33:44,670 --> 00:33:42,310
came time to review the book for choice

729
00:33:47,010 --> 00:33:44,680
choices the name of the journal which

730
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:47,020
reviews books for library university

731
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:50,170
libraries they said unlike the dreary

732
00:33:57,270 --> 00:33:54,730
material in the apology this one stands

733
00:33:59,400 --> 00:33:57,280
out and belongs in every university

734
00:34:02,010 --> 00:33:59,410
library unreal and Wow

735
00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:02,020
yeah yeah and and it's in at least 65

736
00:34:05,940 --> 00:34:03,070
last time I looked

737
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:05,950
University Libraries and it said that

738
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:07,840
because that data is bulletproof it's

739
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:09,790
it's all as I say government sources or

740
00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:11,679
primary sources which over half a

741
00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:12,159
century

742
00:34:18,450 --> 00:34:14,860
these tireless obsessive researchers had

743
00:34:21,869 --> 00:34:18,460
had managed together and which we all

744
00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:21,879
parsed and pruned but Mike had the

745
00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:27,730
synthesis basic based on the

746
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:29,110
foundational work that had been done

747
00:34:35,220 --> 00:34:33,040
before and now we're in the process of

748
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:35,230
scoping out a second book on the

749
00:34:40,349 --> 00:34:36,490
phenomena itself

750
00:34:43,169 --> 00:34:40,359
and making all of these thousands tens

751
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:43,179
of thousands of files accessible to

752
00:34:48,570 --> 00:34:45,490
serious scholars loading them into a

753
00:34:51,869 --> 00:34:48,580
website online it's not available to the

754
00:34:53,970 --> 00:34:51,879
public can't just go there but for

755
00:34:55,290 --> 00:34:53,980
serious scholars we want the material to

756
00:34:57,150 --> 00:34:55,300
be available and that's because we are

757
00:35:01,109 --> 00:34:57,160
getting along in age all the people on

758
00:35:02,190 --> 00:35:01,119
this team and we've seen what's what's

759
00:35:05,820 --> 00:35:02,200
happened I mean there have been some

760
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:05,830
very sad stories of terrific people like

761
00:35:12,060 --> 00:35:08,530
Richard Hall who sold his entire

762
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:12,070
collection of material you know a great

763
00:35:17,730 --> 00:35:15,250
author of UFO evidence to someone who

764
00:35:21,359 --> 00:35:17,740
now hides it away and won't let anyone

765
00:35:23,010 --> 00:35:21,369
have access to it yeah so we want to do

766
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:23,020
the very best we can to make sure that

767
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:25,810
the data is available because the

768
00:35:29,370 --> 00:35:27,970
reasons it's it's in all those academic

769
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:29,380
libraries is because the data is

770
00:35:34,380 --> 00:35:32,770
bulletproof and what we discuss in that

771
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:34,390
book is the narrative about the

772
00:35:39,510 --> 00:35:37,210
government and how it responded in light

773
00:35:43,109 --> 00:35:39,520
of serious and genuine national security

774
00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:43,119
concerns to the phenomena roughly from

775
00:35:48,420 --> 00:35:45,820
the 40s to the 80s and so we don't

776
00:35:50,190 --> 00:35:48,430
speculate we don't say to people when

777
00:35:51,329 --> 00:35:50,200
they said well what do you think people

778
00:35:53,849 --> 00:35:51,339
saying we know you read a book about

779
00:35:55,980 --> 00:35:53,859
aliens and I say no there the word

780
00:35:58,079 --> 00:35:55,990
aliens I think does not occur in the

781
00:36:01,440 --> 00:35:58,089
book UFOs

782
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:01,450
occurs in the book a lot because we show

783
00:36:07,349 --> 00:36:04,140
how seriously the government took UFOs

784
00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:07,359
the documentation the 40s and 50s as we

785
00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:09,820
trace it shows they knew this was

786
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:12,640
something really important and there

787
00:36:20,510 --> 00:36:15,310
have been at least two major prongs one

788
00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:20,520
of which is to from the 50s on damp down

789
00:36:26,220 --> 00:36:22,990
enthusiasm and excitement among the

790
00:36:28,410 --> 00:36:26,230
public public by denying and by

791
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:28,420
ridiculing and by debunking and by

792
00:36:34,980 --> 00:36:30,640
giving explanations Robert on the other

793
00:36:36,930 --> 00:36:34,990
hand yeah yeah we know that's where it

794
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:36,940
was formulated at the Robinson panel we

795
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:38,170
know the Robertson panel didn't

796
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:39,520
formulate policy for the whole

797
00:36:43,710 --> 00:36:41,770
government but it looks as this the

798
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:43,720
government did in fact follow the broad

799
00:36:48,490 --> 00:36:47,170
contours which had those two prongs the

800
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:48,500
bunker

801
00:36:54,910 --> 00:36:52,160
calm people down but at the same time do

802
00:36:56,589 --> 00:36:54,920
research because they described the

803
00:37:00,190 --> 00:36:56,599
aerodynamic qualities of this technology

804
00:37:01,509 --> 00:37:00,200
they knew it wasn't ours and you're

805
00:37:05,470 --> 00:37:01,519
probably familiar with the estimate of

806
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:05,480
the situation mm-hmm which concluded

807
00:37:12,279 --> 00:37:08,180
that it was one of three things right

808
00:37:14,380 --> 00:37:12,289
Russian American or extraterrestrial and

809
00:37:16,420 --> 00:37:14,390
they did their research and their

810
00:37:17,799 --> 00:37:16,430
homework and concluded that it wasn't as

811
00:37:19,420 --> 00:37:17,809
the Air Force concluded it wasn't

812
00:37:24,220 --> 00:37:19,430
Russian and it wasn't ours it wasn't a

813
00:37:25,690 --> 00:37:24,230
secret project so that left just one now

814
00:37:27,430 --> 00:37:25,700
what's happened since then it's kind of

815
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:27,440
interesting is we only had that one

816
00:37:32,980 --> 00:37:30,079
category don't forget we were just

817
00:37:37,299 --> 00:37:32,990
getting into space then when the Sputnik

818
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:37,309
56 we didn't even know if Houston

819
00:37:41,230 --> 00:37:39,650
satellites would would work and when we

820
00:37:43,359 --> 00:37:41,240
went to the moon in the next decade I

821
00:37:45,370 --> 00:37:43,369
remember very real fears that the

822
00:37:48,789 --> 00:37:45,380
Rockets and astronauts would sink in

823
00:37:51,009 --> 00:37:48,799
moon dust and suffocate to death we we

824
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:51,019
literally forget what we didn't know

825
00:37:57,150 --> 00:37:53,569
which was almost everything now we're

826
00:37:59,380 --> 00:37:57,160
used to having Hubble images and x-ray

827
00:38:05,079 --> 00:37:59,390
telescope images and radio telescope

828
00:38:06,430 --> 00:38:05,089
images and/or renderings and and we've

829
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:06,440
gone all through the solar system

830
00:38:11,109 --> 00:38:09,410
robotic Litella robotically and an

831
00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:11,119
exporter own solar system of

832
00:38:16,749 --> 00:38:13,910
extraordinary scientific work as well as

833
00:38:20,349 --> 00:38:16,759
the popular availability of the

834
00:38:25,230 --> 00:38:20,359
close-ups of our neighborhood well then

835
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:25,240
that hadn't that hadn't happened then so

836
00:38:31,980 --> 00:38:29,210
part of part of this story is how we

837
00:38:36,099 --> 00:38:31,990
have expressed own understanding and

838
00:38:39,579 --> 00:38:36,109
physics has expanded or developed other

839
00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:39,589
theories as well so today people say

840
00:38:44,650 --> 00:38:41,569
they don't just say extraterrestrial as

841
00:38:46,420 --> 00:38:44,660
one hypothesis they say maybe this is

842
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:46,430
time travel maybe we don't know where

843
00:38:50,349 --> 00:38:47,930
they come from maybe it's a question of

844
00:38:54,359 --> 00:38:50,359
when because of the speeds that seem

845
00:38:58,690 --> 00:38:54,369
likely relativity comes into play and

846
00:39:00,970 --> 00:38:58,700
people are not not going to come back at

847
00:39:01,930 --> 00:39:00,980
the same age at which they left maybe

848
00:39:05,530 --> 00:39:01,940
this is

849
00:39:08,140 --> 00:39:05,540
the future literally by virtue of the

850
00:39:10,180 --> 00:39:08,150
speed of the technology which alters

851
00:39:12,370 --> 00:39:10,190
time in relationship to our time or

852
00:39:14,860 --> 00:39:12,380
maybe there is a multiverse maybe there

853
00:39:19,570 --> 00:39:14,870
are multiple dimensions or baby

854
00:39:21,970 --> 00:39:19,580
universes that bud off those concepts

855
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:21,980
weren't very thinkable then bring this

856
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:23,930
so that's why the only one people came

857
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:28,370
up with was Extra Terrestrial but now

858
00:39:32,770 --> 00:39:30,110
you know it's pretty common for people

859
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:32,780
to say I think it's comin maybe it's the

860
00:39:37,950 --> 00:39:35,210
people I hang around with the universe

861
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:37,960
is in all likelihood teeming with life

862
00:39:44,260 --> 00:39:40,610
that where life can't happen it will

863
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:44,270
happen we have now managed to say there

864
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:47,330
are billions of stars in this galaxy and

865
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:50,090
billions of galaxies in the visible part

866
00:39:57,190 --> 00:39:54,130
of the universe that we can access and

867
00:40:01,920 --> 00:39:57,200
it is impossible to stand before that

868
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:01,930
network of galaxies without awe and

869
00:40:09,370 --> 00:40:06,400
without not just suspecting but knowing

870
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:09,380
we're not so hot you know we're a pretty

871
00:40:15,070 --> 00:40:13,490
recent know as a species right and I'm

872
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:15,080
looking at electric lights here in my

873
00:40:22,150 --> 00:40:18,290
study and those 150 years old electric

874
00:40:28,450 --> 00:40:22,160
lights I mean we're we're brand new on

875
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:28,460
the right technology plane and anyone

876
00:40:35,830 --> 00:40:32,960
else who evolved sentient intelligence

877
00:40:39,970 --> 00:40:35,840
over thousands of years before or

878
00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:39,980
hundreds of years before would would

879
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:42,800
know things we don't know how to even

880
00:40:49,390 --> 00:40:46,370
imagine or guess or say and my

881
00:40:53,070 --> 00:40:49,400
understanding is that whatever research

882
00:40:56,890 --> 00:40:53,080
has been done on these vehicles we still

883
00:40:59,080 --> 00:40:56,900
can't make them do that we don't know

884
00:41:01,330 --> 00:40:59,090
how to do what we've observed them doing

885
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:01,340
but we have come a long way in

886
00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:04,970
experiments toward doing those things

887
00:41:10,450 --> 00:41:08,510
and you know people say you can't get

888
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:10,460
here from there it's too far but already

889
00:41:15,510 --> 00:41:13,850
we have exotic propulsion systems under

890
00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:15,520
consideration

891
00:41:21,090 --> 00:41:17,920
that would remarkably shorten the time

892
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:21,100
it takes to get to the next star system

893
00:41:27,390 --> 00:41:24,490
I think that's very closed-minded when I

894
00:41:29,580 --> 00:41:27,400
hear that statement that you just can't

895
00:41:31,500 --> 00:41:29,590
get the we don't have the energy you

896
00:41:34,860 --> 00:41:31,510
know because there's things in physics

897
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:34,870
that we haven't discovered yet or like

898
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:37,930
you said you know we're working on now

899
00:41:41,970 --> 00:41:39,730
you don't seem like the person the type

900
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:41,980
of person that would guess on something

901
00:41:47,070 --> 00:41:44,050
but I'm gonna ask you anyway if you had

902
00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:47,080
to guess if the government actually knew

903
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:49,990
what the things were flying around in

904
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:55,090
the sky what would you guess you're

905
00:41:59,580 --> 00:41:57,250
asking if if I thought the government

906
00:42:02,820 --> 00:41:59,590
knew what they were or yeah the identity

907
00:42:05,580 --> 00:42:02,830
of the animating intelligence if if yeah

908
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:05,590
if you had to to lay it back down would

909
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:07,570
you bet that the government knew what

910
00:42:11,580 --> 00:42:09,130
was going on or would you think they're

911
00:42:13,350 --> 00:42:11,590
just as puzzled as everyone else I think

912
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:13,360
they're just as puzzled as everyone else

913
00:42:17,580 --> 00:42:16,240
about some things but I think they know

914
00:42:19,710 --> 00:42:17,590
a number of things

915
00:42:22,770 --> 00:42:19,720
I mean don't forget the Air Force

916
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:22,780
Academy in the 1970s had a textbook for

917
00:42:26,850 --> 00:42:24,400
the cadets at the relatively new Air

918
00:42:30,210 --> 00:42:26,860
Force Academy and I believe was the last

919
00:42:32,910 --> 00:42:30,220
chapter that book was uh nanami's and

920
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:32,920
that focused on UFO phenomena and about

921
00:42:37,380 --> 00:42:35,770
half the chapter or was devoted to some

922
00:42:39,390 --> 00:42:37,390
pretty good cases by someone who was

923
00:42:43,140 --> 00:42:39,400
familiar with them and the other half

924
00:42:46,170 --> 00:42:43,150
was speculation and in that speculative

925
00:42:48,540 --> 00:42:46,180
section the statement was made the

926
00:42:50,490 --> 00:42:48,550
uncorrelated data suggest that for

927
00:42:53,970 --> 00:42:50,500
different civilizations were visiting

928
00:43:00,210 --> 00:42:53,980
the earth mmm no now that's that's a

929
00:43:02,610 --> 00:43:00,220
pretty big statement the that finally

930
00:43:04,410 --> 00:43:02,620
got out it was publicized and where of

931
00:43:04,980 --> 00:43:04,420
course was it publicized in the National

932
00:43:07,140 --> 00:43:04,990
Inquirer

933
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:07,150
which meant that no one would ever take

934
00:43:12,810 --> 00:43:10,090
the story seriously but the book was

935
00:43:14,940 --> 00:43:12,820
retracted and that chapter was attracted

936
00:43:16,770 --> 00:43:14,950
and pulped and a new chapter in the next

937
00:43:20,330 --> 00:43:16,780
edition said nothing like that and

938
00:43:23,250 --> 00:43:20,340
didn't have any case studies at all so

939
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:23,260
sometimes one of the ways you do

940
00:43:26,370 --> 00:43:24,610
research is to look at different

941
00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:26,380
branches government and in different

942
00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:29,440
documents to see what somebody said

943
00:43:33,450 --> 00:43:31,839
they didn't know was not something they

944
00:43:37,470 --> 00:43:33,460
shouldn't say because they weren't read

945
00:43:38,730 --> 00:43:37,480
into a classified category such that

946
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:38,740
they would know that what they were

947
00:43:43,380 --> 00:43:41,170
saying was classified so you might look

948
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:43,390
in the State Department or Department of

949
00:43:48,450 --> 00:43:45,730
Justice or whatever and and that's what

950
00:43:51,660 --> 00:43:48,460
the researchers do and we just comb

951
00:43:53,010 --> 00:43:51,670
through everything to see what we can

952
00:43:55,050 --> 00:43:53,020
learn and that's one of the things we

953
00:43:56,670 --> 00:43:55,060
learned that in the 1970s the statement

954
00:43:59,339 --> 00:43:56,680
was made by the author of that chapter

955
00:44:03,900 --> 00:43:59,349
that the best guess was for different

956
00:44:05,849 --> 00:44:03,910
civilizations now that's that does

957
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:05,859
strongly imply even though we don't

958
00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:07,089
understand the physics of it of the

959
00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:10,720
propulsion so on extraterrestrial mmm

960
00:44:14,370 --> 00:44:12,640
because these are not Earth

961
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:14,380
civilizations they're not living under

962
00:44:18,050 --> 00:44:15,730
the poles they're not living in the

963
00:44:20,790 --> 00:44:18,060
mountains they're they're not a

964
00:44:25,849 --> 00:44:20,800
clandestine cadre of tall whites or

965
00:44:30,359 --> 00:44:25,859
small greys includes with our government

966
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:30,369
those are stories and the question you

967
00:44:36,359 --> 00:44:32,650
always ask about a narrative is where is

968
00:44:39,359 --> 00:44:36,369
the data where is the documentation and

969
00:44:40,740 --> 00:44:39,369
especially in the Internet era people

970
00:44:44,099 --> 00:44:40,750
seem to be prone to believe almost

971
00:44:46,260 --> 00:44:44,109
anything when I give speeches

972
00:44:49,109 --> 00:44:46,270
I have people sometimes ask me do I

973
00:44:51,210 --> 00:44:49,119
believe we have Rovers on Mars or do I

974
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:51,220
think we really went to the moon and I

975
00:44:56,220 --> 00:44:53,920
look at these intelligent people asking

976
00:44:58,980 --> 00:44:56,230
these questions and it scares me and it

977
00:45:00,870 --> 00:44:58,990
boggles the mind to see that the

978
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:00,880
consensus of understanding of what's

979
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:05,170
real has so shredded that somebody could

980
00:45:09,690 --> 00:45:07,170
ask that question in seriousness yeah

981
00:45:12,660 --> 00:45:09,700
why do you suppose that is it's just all

982
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:12,670
the information and false information

983
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:14,650
coming out you know I mean with the

984
00:45:21,059 --> 00:45:18,730
internet just so much well I think in

985
00:45:23,220 --> 00:45:21,069
part we hoisted ourselves on our own

986
00:45:24,930 --> 00:45:23,230
petard as the saying when people don't

987
00:45:27,260 --> 00:45:24,940
know what a parrot is are out always to

988
00:45:30,359 --> 00:45:27,270
yourself but what it means is

989
00:45:36,559 --> 00:45:30,369
responsibility for the conditions they

990
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:36,569
began in after World War two when the

991
00:45:43,230 --> 00:45:41,650
classification schemes and secrecy from

992
00:45:44,670 --> 00:45:43,240
World War two which was appropriate

993
00:45:47,250 --> 00:45:44,680
carried over into the Cold War and

994
00:45:50,430 --> 00:45:47,260
they've never stopped so we called to

995
00:45:53,490 --> 00:45:50,440
national security state and that's

996
00:45:55,950 --> 00:45:53,500
exactly what it is and what it means is

997
00:45:57,930 --> 00:45:55,960
I do talk called fiction is the only way

998
00:46:00,990 --> 00:45:57,940
to tell the truth it's looking what

999
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:01,000
somebody did with it on YouTube on a lot

1000
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:02,650
of my talks are on YouTube you just plug

1001
00:46:08,940 --> 00:46:07,090
my name in and up they come and some of

1002
00:46:13,070 --> 00:46:08,950
the things I show there were that

1003
00:46:16,620 --> 00:46:13,080
they're the practice of disinformation

1004
00:46:17,940 --> 00:46:16,630
rendered it almost impossible for the

1005
00:46:19,830 --> 00:46:17,950
normal human being

1006
00:46:21,690 --> 00:46:19,840
to know what was real there's

1007
00:46:24,750 --> 00:46:21,700
misinformation there's this information

1008
00:46:27,690 --> 00:46:24,760
and now you know you know but what the

1009
00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:27,700
Russian scandal has revealed is that it

1010
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:30,250
you don't have to be Russian in order to

1011
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:32,650
have trolls they have lots of trolls and

1012
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:35,170
they comb the internet and they create

1013
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:36,610
false stories and they create false

1014
00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:39,280
narratives after doing research on which

1015
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:41,350
kinds of people with what kinds of

1016
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:42,910
mentality are likely to believe the

1017
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:47,530
stories they create and and so I coined

1018
00:46:52,530 --> 00:46:49,090
the phrase a long time ago of real birds

1019
00:46:54,750 --> 00:46:52,540
and digital cages that you create a

1020
00:46:57,270 --> 00:46:54,760
digital structure in which people

1021
00:46:58,849 --> 00:46:57,280
themselves and then you move the cage

1022
00:47:01,650 --> 00:46:58,859
and then you don't have to move the

1023
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:01,660
individual inside they just come along

1024
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:05,170
with the narratives and so it's resulted

1025
00:47:10,170 --> 00:47:07,570
in the populace first of all critical

1026
00:47:12,990 --> 00:47:10,180
thinking is kind of on the wane a lot of

1027
00:47:16,109 --> 00:47:13,000
people don't know how to do it and

1028
00:47:19,830 --> 00:47:16,119
education for it is not as strong as it

1029
00:47:22,650 --> 00:47:19,840
used to be and so a lot of people don't

1030
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:22,660
know how to know I mean this questions

1031
00:47:29,070 --> 00:47:25,690
of epistemology how do you know what you

1032
00:47:32,790 --> 00:47:29,080
know and how do you document it how do

1033
00:47:35,730 --> 00:47:32,800
you verify it a lot of people are just

1034
00:47:37,380 --> 00:47:35,740
happy to repeat what's been repeated a

1035
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:37,390
million times and often they don't know

1036
00:47:42,450 --> 00:47:40,330
it's a thousand websites directed and

1037
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:42,460
orchestrated by a single person or a

1038
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:46,570
single government entity and we did

1039
00:47:51,210 --> 00:47:48,640
plenty of that too so in that

1040
00:47:54,660 --> 00:47:51,220
environment through to get it the truth

1041
00:47:56,849 --> 00:47:54,670
is very difficult and it does mean

1042
00:47:59,699 --> 00:47:56,859
people are going to be prone to

1043
00:48:02,459 --> 00:47:59,709
believing almost anything because some

1044
00:48:04,170 --> 00:48:02,469
of the things we uncover are literally

1045
00:48:08,459 --> 00:48:04,180
beyond belief you can't believe people

1046
00:48:10,859 --> 00:48:08,469
did that but but they did hmm Wow

1047
00:48:14,339 --> 00:48:10,869
you know someone asked for it off the

1048
00:48:18,690 --> 00:48:14,349
bat of course talk about a million times

1049
00:48:21,150 --> 00:48:18,700
the Roswell topic there was never any

1050
00:48:23,969 --> 00:48:21,160
type of government documents that ever

1051
00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:23,979
mentioned Roswell except in the 1990s

1052
00:48:30,180 --> 00:48:27,910
right I'm not familiar with with much on

1053
00:48:32,219 --> 00:48:30,190
Roswell from the government and what

1054
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:32,229
there is isn't conclusive in terms of

1055
00:48:39,690 --> 00:48:36,130
any narrative when they did that silly

1056
00:48:41,489 --> 00:48:39,700
story about crash-test dummies at a time

1057
00:48:43,499 --> 00:48:41,499
when crash-test dummies hadn't even been

1058
00:48:46,319 --> 00:48:43,509
used right it's like they're saying

1059
00:48:48,209 --> 00:48:46,329
we're going to lie to you and you know

1060
00:48:50,039 --> 00:48:48,219
we're lying but it's a way of telling

1061
00:48:51,569 --> 00:48:50,049
you that whatever the truth is we're not

1062
00:48:54,859 --> 00:48:51,579
going to tell you and you're not going

1063
00:48:57,359 --> 00:48:54,869
to find it out and that's the situation

1064
00:48:59,069 --> 00:48:57,369
we don't talk about Roswell in our book

1065
00:49:01,229 --> 00:48:59,079
very much because there's no

1066
00:49:04,769 --> 00:49:01,239
documentation for it

1067
00:49:07,469 --> 00:49:04,779
it's kind of an outlier most people are

1068
00:49:09,509 --> 00:49:07,479
very familiar with the cottage industry

1069
00:49:14,180 --> 00:49:09,519
called Roswell that's been built out of

1070
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:14,190
books and documentaries and movies and

1071
00:49:19,380 --> 00:49:17,170
you see enough of those it's kind of

1072
00:49:23,370 --> 00:49:19,390
like the gray gray on the cover of

1073
00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:23,380
communion once that's in the imagination

1074
00:49:31,170 --> 00:49:27,910
that's what greys look like but but we

1075
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:31,180
don't know so the Roswell narrative has

1076
00:49:35,370 --> 00:49:33,249
been fraught from the beginning with all

1077
00:49:38,849 --> 00:49:35,380
sorts of assertions that over time have

1078
00:49:41,279 --> 00:49:38,859
been revealed to be untrue witnesses who

1079
00:49:43,769 --> 00:49:41,289
were not witnesses at all people telling

1080
00:49:45,839 --> 00:49:43,779
stories who were revealed to telling

1081
00:49:49,309 --> 00:49:45,849
stories and if there's there's some who

1082
00:49:52,019 --> 00:49:49,319
seem credible in terms of the material

1083
00:49:54,809 --> 00:49:52,029
but you know the remarkable material and

1084
00:49:57,660 --> 00:49:54,819
there's a fun story about right Pat and

1085
00:50:01,380 --> 00:49:57,670
the patella Institute next door working

1086
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:01,390
on a new substance which had those

1087
00:50:07,829 --> 00:50:04,650
properties of a cover ability and so on

1088
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:07,839
but that's correlation not causation we

1089
00:50:12,330 --> 00:50:10,450
we don't know

1090
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:12,340
we've all heard lots of stories about

1091
00:50:17,730 --> 00:50:15,730
recovery of bodies but every time

1092
00:50:23,010 --> 00:50:17,740
there's an image of a body like the

1093
00:50:25,710 --> 00:50:23,020
famous autopsy oh yeah video display

1094
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:25,720
it's bogus and it doesn't take much to

1095
00:50:33,060 --> 00:50:29,050
make a bogus story it doesn't take much

1096
00:50:36,210 --> 00:50:33,070
to insert a narrative into the mind and

1097
00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:36,220
eager hands what the intelligence

1098
00:50:44,190 --> 00:50:40,600
community calls useful idiots so we have

1099
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:44,200
a lot of documented instances like the

1100
00:50:51,750 --> 00:50:47,410
aviary once upon a time and the alien

1101
00:50:54,390 --> 00:50:51,760
who loved strawberry ice cream i right

1102
00:50:56,730 --> 00:50:54,400
it didn't doesn't take that much and and

1103
00:50:59,310 --> 00:50:56,740
and and if you want to do something

1104
00:51:03,270 --> 00:50:59,320
seriously to throw the wagon off the

1105
00:51:05,250 --> 00:51:03,280
tracks the resources which military and

1106
00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:05,260
intelligence and government people have

1107
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:08,110
are extraordinary and these are you have

1108
00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:10,570
they make mistakes and sometimes bumble

1109
00:51:15,150 --> 00:51:12,880
things but but these are professionals

1110
00:51:18,300 --> 00:51:15,160
and a lot of the time they know what

1111
00:51:21,870 --> 00:51:18,310
they're doing and when it's the more

1112
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:21,880
important it is the more critical the

1113
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:25,690
knowledge is the more harder and money

1114
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:28,810
is going to be spent to make sure that

1115
00:51:33,780 --> 00:51:32,050
nobody finds out because it is

1116
00:51:37,530 --> 00:51:33,790
understood in terms of national security

1117
00:51:41,220 --> 00:51:37,540
issues and those are those go to the

1118
00:51:43,140 --> 00:51:41,230
highest levels that they can so do I

1119
00:51:45,150 --> 00:51:43,150
think there are people inside what we

1120
00:51:47,060 --> 00:51:45,160
call government it's probably not a

1121
00:51:49,710 --> 00:51:47,070
government structure it's off the books

1122
00:51:52,350 --> 00:51:49,720
which is the way you handle anything if

1123
00:51:56,130 --> 00:51:52,360
you don't want it on the books and it

1124
00:51:58,020 --> 00:51:56,140
would include corporate and military and

1125
00:51:59,820 --> 00:51:58,030
perhaps government as well but it

1126
00:52:02,100 --> 00:51:59,830
wouldn't be a huge group wouldn't be a

1127
00:52:04,650 --> 00:52:02,110
huge cadre and it would be group of

1128
00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:04,660
absolutely trusted individuals who trust

1129
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:05,440
one another

1130
00:52:13,710 --> 00:52:08,290
and who now several generations down

1131
00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:13,720
line can recruit others from the next

1132
00:52:21,150 --> 00:52:16,710
generation on the basis of knowing them

1133
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:21,160
and it's the way the agency is now now

1134
00:52:23,790 --> 00:52:22,690
people are lined up trying to go to the

1135
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:23,800
agency's aftermath

1136
00:52:28,230 --> 00:52:26,290
but once upon a time a lot of the

1137
00:52:31,590 --> 00:52:28,240
different agencies had kind of

1138
00:52:34,530 --> 00:52:31,600
proprietary campuses which they oversaw

1139
00:52:37,860 --> 00:52:34,540
as sources of recruitment and in the

1140
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:37,870
senior year a student might be called in

1141
00:52:43,470 --> 00:52:41,530
to the office of a favored professor who

1142
00:52:45,180 --> 00:52:43,480
suddenly says I have some ideas for you

1143
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:45,190
about where you might want to go for

1144
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:48,250
work and one of the signs is that is

1145
00:52:52,230 --> 00:52:50,650
happening campus-wide is when you have a

1146
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:52,240
lot of very bright people who you never

1147
00:52:57,210 --> 00:52:54,970
hear from again they graduate and they

1148
00:52:59,400 --> 00:52:57,220
go on and and you don't know you can

1149
00:53:02,100 --> 00:52:59,410
look at their finances and very often

1150
00:53:04,470 --> 00:53:02,110
they received an infusion of cash say in

1151
00:53:07,500 --> 00:53:04,480
the 70s when they were kind of reeling

1152
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:07,510
needed money and the money came in and

1153
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:09,970
there are other hallmarks you can use to

1154
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:11,530
kind of identify what those campuses

1155
00:53:15,750 --> 00:53:13,330
were where people could be observed in

1156
00:53:18,420 --> 00:53:15,760
social academic and a variety of

1157
00:53:23,220 --> 00:53:18,430
academic it's not just a narrow narrow

1158
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:23,230
academic training and then then they go

1159
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:30,130
on into dark work so we're not going to

1160
00:53:35,010 --> 00:53:32,410
get there we're not going to get to them

1161
00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:35,020
and I've learned over time that when

1162
00:53:40,380 --> 00:53:38,350
people approach me and suggest to me

1163
00:53:41,820 --> 00:53:40,390
that they have some revelation they want

1164
00:53:44,580 --> 00:53:41,830
to give me and they hope I'll share it

1165
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:44,590
from the platform you know the red flags

1166
00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:48,970
just start flying boy yeah it's kind of

1167
00:53:55,490 --> 00:53:51,250
like there's a number of deathbed

1168
00:53:57,660 --> 00:53:55,500
confessions that are on YouTube that

1169
00:54:02,970 --> 00:53:57,670
almost can kind of think along those

1170
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:02,980
lines similar yeah it's awful hard to

1171
00:54:09,060 --> 00:54:06,910
know when you're trying to find out more

1172
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:09,070
about the subject to have a the right

1173
00:54:15,990 --> 00:54:14,050
type of filter and right and what would

1174
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:16,000
you suggest to like say one of the

1175
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:17,650
listeners out there that's fascinated by

1176
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:22,240
the the topic how how would you go about

1177
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:24,250
that I mean there's so like you said

1178
00:54:29,370 --> 00:54:25,810
there's so much disinformation and

1179
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:29,380
misinformation and no now the British

1180
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:31,210
tabloids you know get involved with

1181
00:54:36,870 --> 00:54:35,770
stories and with half-truths and and so

1182
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:36,880
like a lot of

1183
00:54:46,140 --> 00:54:39,970
stuff out there there's a lot of jumble

1184
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:46,150
out there that that's right and the

1185
00:54:51,690 --> 00:54:48,880
tabloids I mean let me just start with

1186
00:54:54,089 --> 00:54:51,700
that because the story of the National

1187
00:54:56,130 --> 00:54:54,099
Enquirer is very interesting it's not

1188
00:54:59,579 --> 00:54:56,140
conclusive proof but it's highly

1189
00:55:03,990 --> 00:54:59,589
suggestive the National Enquirer began

1190
00:55:08,430 --> 00:55:04,000
in 1953 and Jean Pope or Generoso his

1191
00:55:11,249 --> 00:55:08,440
Italian name Pope who began it in 1952

1192
00:55:14,279 --> 00:55:11,259
what he was doing was psychological

1193
00:55:15,890 --> 00:55:14,289
operations from the CIA right yeah and

1194
00:55:18,870 --> 00:55:15,900
he left the agency to start the

1195
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:18,880
newspaper which did not make money for a

1196
00:55:23,609 --> 00:55:21,490
number of years and a lot of hundreds of

1197
00:55:27,059 --> 00:55:23,619
thousands of dollars came to him every

1198
00:55:28,740 --> 00:55:27,069
year to keep it afloat and a lot of it

1199
00:55:32,700 --> 00:55:28,750
transited through Frank Costello the

1200
00:55:34,650 --> 00:55:32,710
head of the Mafia in New York and it's

1201
00:55:36,029 --> 00:55:34,660
interesting because the Enquirer used to

1202
00:55:37,980 --> 00:55:36,039
have a bulletin board up in the front

1203
00:55:40,740 --> 00:55:37,990
hall and they would monitor every week

1204
00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:40,750
what the main front page stories were

1205
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:42,250
that you saw in the supermarket you know

1206
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:44,410
we're all familiar with that and what

1207
00:55:50,430 --> 00:55:46,930
the circulation was and so they gathered

1208
00:55:53,759 --> 00:55:50,440
the data over time of which stories sold

1209
00:55:57,509 --> 00:55:53,769
the most papers and it wasn't UFO

1210
00:55:59,789 --> 00:55:57,519
stories it was medical mysteries and

1211
00:56:02,940 --> 00:55:59,799
celebrity scandals and some things like

1212
00:56:07,499 --> 00:56:02,950
that yet the number one story in terms

1213
00:56:09,660 --> 00:56:07,509
of quantity with UFO stories so why why

1214
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:09,670
did they go with that well you don't

1215
00:56:15,029 --> 00:56:12,160
even have to believe that the hair was

1216
00:56:17,370 --> 00:56:15,039
started at hawk by an agency to know

1217
00:56:19,370 --> 00:56:17,380
that the agencies used all sorts of

1218
00:56:26,450 --> 00:56:19,380
journalists and periodicals good and bad

1219
00:56:30,630 --> 00:56:26,460
to promulgate strategies and and and so

1220
00:56:31,049 --> 00:56:30,640
when you say tabloids that's what comes

1221
00:56:33,660 --> 00:56:31,059
to mind

1222
00:56:38,579 --> 00:56:33,670
now given that knowing that knowing how

1223
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:38,589
this information does work this is gonna

1224
00:56:44,930 --> 00:56:42,130
sound disingenuous but the best thing

1225
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:44,940
you can really do is learn how to think

1226
00:56:50,610 --> 00:56:49,210
you have to learn how to think and I

1227
00:56:54,030 --> 00:56:50,620
once interviewed a

1228
00:56:56,490 --> 00:56:54,040
profiler for the CIA and and she said

1229
00:56:58,140 --> 00:56:56,500
what should be normal practice she said

1230
00:56:59,760 --> 00:56:58,150
when you're about to come to a

1231
00:57:00,540 --> 00:56:59,770
conclusion you're about to jump to a

1232
00:57:03,420 --> 00:57:00,550
conclusion

1233
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:03,430
stop stop yourself and ask Who am I

1234
00:57:10,470 --> 00:57:06,690
didn't think that Who am I to know that

1235
00:57:13,260 --> 00:57:10,480
what what else don't I know what is the

1236
00:57:15,180 --> 00:57:13,270
data that supports what I think and so

1237
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:15,190
before you leap into a conclusion

1238
00:57:21,750 --> 00:57:17,290
because it's a compelling narrative or

1239
00:57:25,830 --> 00:57:21,760
someone said it remain agnostic remain

1240
00:57:28,170 --> 00:57:25,840
agnostic all the way back up and gather

1241
00:57:30,390 --> 00:57:28,180
the data and if you don't have the data

1242
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:30,400
and no you don't have it then don't

1243
00:57:36,450 --> 00:57:32,770
don't say anything but don't believe

1244
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:36,460
anything wait because you don't know and

1245
00:57:42,650 --> 00:57:39,250
a lot of people are unhappy not knowing

1246
00:57:48,150 --> 00:57:42,660
in the face of the unknown especially

1247
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:48,160
and Nietzsche said very fondly that we

1248
00:57:53,550 --> 00:57:51,850
call truth those explanations which have

1249
00:57:55,350 --> 00:57:53,560
nothing to do with the truth but they do

1250
00:57:59,400 --> 00:57:55,360
have everything to do with comforting us

1251
00:58:01,230 --> 00:57:59,410
and explaining away and squashing the

1252
00:58:02,010 --> 00:58:01,240
cognitive dissonance people feel in the

1253
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:02,020
face of the unknown

1254
00:58:07,260 --> 00:58:04,930
so the first explanation that makes us

1255
00:58:09,270 --> 00:58:07,270
feel better is the one we say that's

1256
00:58:13,530 --> 00:58:09,280
probably right that's probably true and

1257
00:58:15,150 --> 00:58:13,540
and then people agree on it and pretty

1258
00:58:18,990 --> 00:58:15,160
soon you've got orthodoxy and you've got

1259
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:19,000
a consensus and everybody knows it and

1260
00:58:22,950 --> 00:58:21,130
and so knowing that that's what human

1261
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:22,960
beings do you have to take a very

1262
00:58:27,990 --> 00:58:25,810
self-critical attitude toward your own

1263
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:28,000
knowledge and and way of learning and

1264
00:58:32,670 --> 00:58:31,330
understanding and recognize it is you

1265
00:58:35,850 --> 00:58:32,680
know I try I've been speaking

1266
00:58:38,070 --> 00:58:35,860
professionally for 24 years and I know

1267
00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:38,080
that if I stay with what I know I know

1268
00:58:43,140 --> 00:58:41,110
I'm okay but if I pretend I know

1269
00:58:46,530 --> 00:58:43,150
something I don't know I'm gonna get in

1270
00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:46,540
trouble so if you know you don't know

1271
00:58:50,820 --> 00:58:47,710
something don't go there

1272
00:58:53,510 --> 00:58:50,830
and I mean that mentally as well as from

1273
00:58:55,980 --> 00:58:53,520
a speaking platform don't believe it

1274
00:58:57,330 --> 00:58:55,990
until you have some data that can help

1275
00:58:59,100 --> 00:58:57,340
you understand what it is

1276
00:59:02,250 --> 00:58:59,110
now when you do look at the UFO data

1277
00:59:04,410 --> 00:59:02,260
let's get to the other side

1278
00:59:06,330 --> 00:59:04,420
I know it's in

1279
00:59:10,590 --> 00:59:06,340
possible to talk to the people I've

1280
00:59:14,490 --> 00:59:10,600
talked to over in years and look at the

1281
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:14,500
instances of encounters without knowing

1282
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:17,110
it's true now the question is what is

1283
00:59:22,650 --> 00:59:19,210
true well people have encounters with

1284
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:22,660
anomalous phenomena which is

1285
00:59:27,630 --> 00:59:25,450
intelligently operated and which seems

1286
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:27,640
to have at least a physical or

1287
00:59:34,530 --> 00:59:30,450
scientific or technological component

1288
00:59:38,250 --> 00:59:34,540
but it also behaves in strange ways that

1289
00:59:41,340 --> 00:59:38,260
baffles us that seems to distort

1290
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:41,350
space-time when we're in its presence

1291
00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:44,170
and we don't know what that's about

1292
00:59:52,290 --> 00:59:47,310
we really don't we don't we don't get it

1293
00:59:54,660 --> 00:59:52,300
so look at the data gather the data and

1294
00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:54,670
if it's data that doesn't fit in your

1295
01:00:00,180 --> 00:59:57,610
paradigm or model hold it lightly but

1296
01:00:03,930 --> 01:00:00,190
don't throw it away but be very careful

1297
01:00:07,650 --> 01:00:03,940
with what you choose to believe because

1298
01:00:09,390 --> 01:00:07,660
if it's not supported by the data then

1299
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:09,400
you haven't got a leg to stand then you

1300
01:00:15,090 --> 01:00:11,890
haven't got a reason to believe it and

1301
01:00:19,860 --> 01:00:15,100
just because it's on 50 websites instead

1302
01:00:24,990 --> 01:00:19,870
of one is no reason to believe it

1303
01:00:28,710 --> 01:00:25,000
because websites copy one another you

1304
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:28,720
know you know I mean I was all yeah yeah

1305
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:31,930
so think about thinking that's that's

1306
01:00:37,620 --> 01:00:34,210
really the the advice now think about

1307
01:00:40,350 --> 01:00:37,630
how you think yeah now back when you

1308
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:40,360
said you know the people will develop

1309
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:43,450
something on the idea that it makes them

1310
01:00:48,390 --> 01:00:46,210
feel good that kind of reminds me of how

1311
01:00:50,490 --> 01:00:48,400
a lot of our religions must have

1312
01:00:53,940 --> 01:00:50,500
developed I don't know how you're gonna

1313
01:00:58,050 --> 01:00:53,950
take that with your background but you

1314
01:01:03,000 --> 01:00:58,060
know beliefs yeah yeah the belief system

1315
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:03,010
yeah yeah that is correct that is

1316
01:01:11,490 --> 01:01:08,050
absolutely correct well my background is

1317
01:01:13,740 --> 01:01:11,500
one thing but but people assume that I

1318
01:01:15,570 --> 01:01:13,750
have maybe because I said I was in the

1319
01:01:18,060 --> 01:01:15,580
ministry that I have a credulous

1320
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:18,070
approach to those things and I don't

1321
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:19,530
I taught English literature and

1322
01:01:32,970 --> 01:01:21,130
University of Illinois I think I

1323
01:01:35,010 --> 01:01:32,980
mentioned that and and I I'm sorry just

1324
01:01:40,380 --> 01:01:35,020
my computer is playing games so they

1325
01:01:43,260 --> 01:01:40,390
just locked me out of my own website I'm

1326
01:01:45,990 --> 01:01:43,270
gonna just shut that down and go go back

1327
01:01:48,210 --> 01:01:46,000
yeah to where we were what was the

1328
01:01:50,250 --> 01:01:48,220
question but I'm sorry again you know I

1329
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:50,260
just basically said that you know a lot

1330
01:01:56,250 --> 01:01:53,770
of the reality is created by religion

1331
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:56,260
kind of oh yeah yeah same line of what

1332
01:01:59,070 --> 01:01:56,890
you're talking about

1333
01:02:01,170 --> 01:01:59,080
yeah yeah so so by studying literature

1334
01:02:04,500 --> 01:02:01,180
but when I approach the study of

1335
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:04,510
scriptures for example you brought all

1336
01:02:10,410 --> 01:02:06,610
that understanding of how to approach a

1337
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:10,420
text a narrative with you you did

1338
01:02:15,810 --> 01:02:13,810
critical thinking about the text so take

1339
01:02:18,210 --> 01:02:15,820
something in the Bible you find

1340
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:18,220
something it was woefully contradictory

1341
01:02:23,070 --> 01:02:20,410
or two accounts of the same thing that

1342
01:02:24,630 --> 01:02:23,080
were different instead of just

1343
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:24,640
explaining everything away in some

1344
01:02:32,010 --> 01:02:28,690
fatuous way you took a closer look at

1345
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:32,020
how did this come to be and for example

1346
01:02:37,110 --> 01:02:34,090
you might discover there were different

1347
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:37,120
communities using material to tell the

1348
01:02:40,980 --> 01:02:39,370
same kind of story in different ways and

1349
01:02:43,830 --> 01:02:40,990
you can tell an awful lot about the

1350
01:02:46,470 --> 01:02:43,840
community by how it told the story hmm

1351
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:46,480
you can tell the Matthew for example it

1352
01:02:50,610 --> 01:02:49,210
was addressing Jewish communities and

1353
01:02:54,420 --> 01:02:50,620
the Apostle Paul was going to Gentile

1354
01:02:56,220 --> 01:02:54,430
communities the arguments they chose it

1355
01:02:59,190 --> 01:02:56,230
doesn't mean the arguments are literally

1356
01:03:01,770 --> 01:02:59,200
always true it means this is what they

1357
01:03:05,550 --> 01:03:01,780
needed to say to make the case in a

1358
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:05,560
particular context and so there was no

1359
01:03:11,610 --> 01:03:07,930
difference in in how you learned to

1360
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:11,620
approach religious texts then what I'm

1361
01:03:16,860 --> 01:03:13,210
talking about was approaching narratives

1362
01:03:19,950 --> 01:03:16,870
about UFOs you you brought a hermeneutic

1363
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:19,960
of suspicions to the text and you did

1364
01:03:25,140 --> 01:03:22,690
the analysis using all the critical

1365
01:03:28,860 --> 01:03:25,150
acumen you had literary tools literary

1366
01:03:30,510 --> 01:03:28,870
textual analysis redaction criticism to

1367
01:03:31,589 --> 01:03:30,520
look at how the narrative was

1368
01:03:36,259 --> 01:03:31,599
transferred

1369
01:03:38,370 --> 01:03:36,269
next and how it changed along the way I

1370
01:03:40,529 --> 01:03:38,380
mean some of these things there are

1371
01:03:42,749 --> 01:03:40,539
obvious you know I mean we used to save

1372
01:03:44,099 --> 01:03:42,759
the Lord's Prayer and say at the end for

1373
01:03:45,930 --> 01:03:44,109
thine is the kingdom and the power and

1374
01:03:48,689 --> 01:03:45,940
the glory forever and ever amen sounds

1375
01:03:52,799 --> 01:03:48,699
great but it was discovered that a monk

1376
01:03:54,539 --> 01:03:52,809
in transcribing that text had gotten

1377
01:03:58,199 --> 01:03:54,549
very very excited by the Lord's Prayer

1378
01:03:59,999 --> 01:03:58,209
and wrote in the margin his own response

1379
01:04:01,319 --> 01:04:00,009
to it which was for thine is the kingdom

1380
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:01,329
and the power and the glory for ever and

1381
01:04:04,709 --> 01:04:03,130
ever amen and then the next month

1382
01:04:06,719 --> 01:04:04,719
because there was no copyright or

1383
01:04:08,189 --> 01:04:06,729
boundary around the text next one

1384
01:04:10,109 --> 01:04:08,199
thought oh he left it out and he put it

1385
01:04:13,469 --> 01:04:10,119
in the margin so they included it and

1386
01:04:15,209 --> 01:04:13,479
then for many centuries people said well

1387
01:04:17,459 --> 01:04:15,219
these are the words of Jesus and and

1388
01:04:19,109 --> 01:04:17,469
then you go back to the text and see

1389
01:04:21,569 --> 01:04:19,119
where that happened and when it happened

1390
01:04:23,069 --> 01:04:21,579
and how it happened and you say well

1391
01:04:24,269 --> 01:04:23,079
these aren't the words of Jesus these

1392
01:04:26,339 --> 01:04:24,279
are the words of somebody else who are

1393
01:04:30,269 --> 01:04:26,349
put in the margin that's just a trivial

1394
01:04:32,219 --> 01:04:30,279
example of what it asks of us and it's

1395
01:04:34,259 --> 01:04:32,229
much easier to say I believe everything

1396
01:04:38,130 --> 01:04:34,269
I believe everything and I that settles

1397
01:04:44,999 --> 01:04:38,140
it but that's not religion that's that's

1398
01:04:48,809 --> 01:04:45,009
that's credulous embrace of as you say a

1399
01:04:52,069 --> 01:04:48,819
narrative to make you feel more

1400
01:04:54,509 --> 01:04:52,079
comfortable with the anxiety-producing

1401
01:04:56,969 --> 01:04:54,519
existential realities of our lives yeah

1402
01:04:57,329 --> 01:04:56,979
that we're all going to die yeah it's

1403
01:05:00,150 --> 01:04:57,339
perfect

1404
01:05:04,859 --> 01:05:00,160
yeah yeah there's a question that came

1405
01:05:07,140 --> 01:05:04,869
in on our forum from Kerry and I here it

1406
01:05:09,089 --> 01:05:07,150
is as President Eisenhower was leaving

1407
01:05:10,799 --> 01:05:09,099
office he warned about the rising power

1408
01:05:13,769 --> 01:05:10,809
of the military military-industrial

1409
01:05:16,529 --> 01:05:13,779
complex and the threat against democracy

1410
01:05:19,650 --> 01:05:16,539
do you think this is a reality in

1411
01:05:23,099 --> 01:05:19,660
present time and if to do so there are

1412
01:05:28,279 --> 01:05:23,109
secrets known to an elite group on the

1413
01:05:29,999 --> 01:05:28,289
UFO subject that's kept from knowledge

1414
01:05:32,309 --> 01:05:30,009
there's two different things

1415
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:32,319
I mean Eisenhower had a close-up view of

1416
01:05:39,359 --> 01:05:35,650
what in the 50s was created the national

1417
01:05:42,029 --> 01:05:39,369
security state was part of it and and

1418
01:05:43,620 --> 01:05:42,039
and he was right he was describing the

1419
01:05:46,390 --> 01:05:43,630
military-industrial complex he was

1420
01:05:48,790 --> 01:05:46,400
describing a new social economic

1421
01:05:51,790 --> 01:05:48,800
political reality which had come into

1422
01:05:55,810 --> 01:05:51,800
being under his tutelage and he foresaw

1423
01:05:58,720 --> 01:05:55,820
that it could have some some trouble he

1424
01:06:01,630 --> 01:05:58,730
was right now yeah he was right yeah I

1425
01:06:06,070 --> 01:06:01,640
mean that's what we live with now mm-hmm

1426
01:06:10,330 --> 01:06:06,080
but to go from that to is is there a

1427
01:06:12,460 --> 01:06:10,340
group managing UFOs there would have to

1428
01:06:15,010 --> 01:06:12,470
be is what you would say how would you

1429
01:06:17,490 --> 01:06:15,020
do it if you had any authority or

1430
01:06:21,550 --> 01:06:17,500
responsibility for responding to this

1431
01:06:25,030 --> 01:06:21,560
this arcane exotic technology what would

1432
01:06:28,810 --> 01:06:25,040
you do you would handpick the very best

1433
01:06:32,170 --> 01:06:28,820
people and identify the means by which

1434
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:32,180
research reverse engineering is possible

1435
01:06:37,930 --> 01:06:34,610
inference from the technological display

1436
01:06:40,300 --> 01:06:37,940
like for example of the plasmas that are

1437
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:40,310
often seen changing colors around the

1438
01:06:44,860 --> 01:06:43,280
vehicles and ionizing the I believe

1439
01:06:46,690 --> 01:06:44,870
nitrogen in the atmosphere around it

1440
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:46,700
which accounts for why they changed

1441
01:06:52,660 --> 01:06:50,090
colors as the power train intensifies as

1442
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:52,670
it accelerates this has been described

1443
01:06:58,450 --> 01:06:54,530
many times in the physics of it has has

1444
01:07:01,750 --> 01:06:58,460
been done you would start with what can

1445
01:07:05,140 --> 01:07:01,760
we infer according to our physics now on

1446
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:05,150
the basis of what we see and then what

1447
01:07:10,780 --> 01:07:08,810
effects do they manifest and how can we

1448
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:10,790
do the research that will lead us in

1449
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:15,290
those same directions say to fiber

1450
01:07:20,650 --> 01:07:18,410
optics our computer chips if those were

1451
01:07:23,590 --> 01:07:20,660
if those were examples I don't know that

1452
01:07:26,020 --> 01:07:23,600
they were and and then you would do the

1453
01:07:27,370 --> 01:07:26,030
research in a classified way that is

1454
01:07:31,540 --> 01:07:27,380
people who worked on it would not

1455
01:07:33,490 --> 01:07:31,550
necessarily know the intent of the

1456
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:33,500
research they wouldn't necessarily know

1457
01:07:38,260 --> 01:07:35,810
the source of the materials with which

1458
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:38,270
they worked they would be given a cover

1459
01:07:43,540 --> 01:07:40,610
story and only those was a need-to-know

1460
01:07:46,660 --> 01:07:43,550
would know and those would be really

1461
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:46,670
above top secret that's how I'd do it

1462
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:50,530
and I would do it off the books I would

1463
01:07:58,120 --> 01:07:53,770
make sure the funding came in from

1464
01:07:59,140 --> 01:07:58,130
unrecognizable sources to sustain the

1465
01:08:01,779 --> 01:07:59,150
effort

1466
01:08:04,450 --> 01:08:01,789
and it's quite possible that such an

1467
01:08:09,069 --> 01:08:04,460
effort would overtime take on an

1468
01:08:10,870 --> 01:08:09,079
identity of its own right people often

1469
01:08:12,579 --> 01:08:10,880
say what the is the president briefed on

1470
01:08:16,450 --> 01:08:12,589
this every time they come into office

1471
01:08:20,890 --> 01:08:16,460
can you imagine Trump Bush Obama all

1472
01:08:23,709 --> 01:08:20,900
being told you know Trump would rush to

1473
01:08:26,109 --> 01:08:23,719
you know Twitter and he said they're

1474
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:26,119
real they're real they told me it's real

1475
01:08:31,510 --> 01:08:28,369
UFOs are real Wow

1476
01:08:34,899 --> 01:08:31,520
you know we'd get that you know 3:00 in

1477
01:08:38,530 --> 01:08:34,909
the morning so I think if there is such

1478
01:08:40,990 --> 01:08:38,540
a group organized around the responsible

1479
01:08:43,629 --> 01:08:41,000
management of a response to the

1480
01:08:46,390 --> 01:08:43,639
phenomena it would not necessarily

1481
01:08:48,700 --> 01:08:46,400
include any elected official of

1482
01:08:52,209 --> 01:08:48,710
necessity it would include those who

1483
01:08:54,339 --> 01:08:52,219
needed to know on behalf of the project

1484
01:08:57,609 --> 01:08:54,349
and the project could develop a you know

1485
01:09:00,959 --> 01:08:57,619
a life of its own over time depending on

1486
01:09:05,620 --> 01:09:00,969
the motivations of the people involved

1487
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:05,630
right Wow you know I had I had Chris

1488
01:09:13,359 --> 01:09:10,730
melon on who was had you know he was

1489
01:09:19,379 --> 01:09:13,369
involved in the DoD and he basically

1490
01:09:22,959 --> 01:09:19,389
said that the if the president requested

1491
01:09:24,700 --> 01:09:22,969
to know information about UFOs that they

1492
01:09:26,229 --> 01:09:24,710
would if they knew something they'd have

1493
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:26,239
to tell him but again you're talking

1494
01:09:31,589 --> 01:09:29,810
about something off the books need to

1495
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:31,599
know it'd be a total different situation

1496
01:09:36,669 --> 01:09:34,730
well and and who would he ask

1497
01:09:40,149 --> 01:09:36,679
so say he asked somebody who doesn't

1498
01:09:44,079 --> 01:09:40,159
know or isn't isn't part of the the

1499
01:09:47,829 --> 01:09:44,089
management group he could very well be

1500
01:09:49,419 --> 01:09:47,839
told in good conscience there's nothing

1501
01:09:52,539 --> 01:09:49,429
to it I don't know anything about it I

1502
01:09:54,490 --> 01:09:52,549
don't have any data about that and the

1503
01:09:56,229 --> 01:09:54,500
person telling him that would would tell

1504
01:09:58,300 --> 01:09:56,239
them the truth I mean don't forget when

1505
01:09:59,859 --> 01:09:58,310
people work you know people say oh you

1506
01:10:02,620 --> 01:09:59,869
know about the intelligence community no

1507
01:10:05,859 --> 01:10:02,630
I I kind of have some hints over the

1508
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:05,869
years of how how it operates but no I'm

1509
01:10:10,270 --> 01:10:08,330
I don't have privileged information and

1510
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:10,280
the people I have talked to have

1511
01:10:13,820 --> 01:10:12,170
sometimes told me that projects on which

1512
01:10:16,340 --> 01:10:13,830
they were

1513
01:10:18,410 --> 01:10:16,350
the ultimate reason for the project was

1514
01:10:21,470 --> 01:10:18,420
not revealed and until many years later

1515
01:10:22,729 --> 01:10:21,480
when it was Declassified that even all

1516
01:10:25,430 --> 01:10:22,739
the people working on the project

1517
01:10:27,770 --> 01:10:25,440
understood it in one way they were given

1518
01:10:29,450 --> 01:10:27,780
a meaningful cover story like the

1519
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:29,460
recovery of the Soviet sub when it went

1520
01:10:33,530 --> 01:10:31,650
down the Pacific the cover story was

1521
01:10:36,380 --> 01:10:33,540
researching for manganese nodules in the

1522
01:10:38,660 --> 01:10:36,390
Pacific and created proprietaries to

1523
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:38,670
bring it up well we were looking for

1524
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:40,890
manganese nodules so if that's all

1525
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:45,090
someone knew that was true but it was

1526
01:10:49,700 --> 01:10:46,650
also true that it wasn't the whole story

1527
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:49,710
and you can't tell the whole story if

1528
01:10:54,350 --> 01:10:52,650
you don't know the whole story right so

1529
01:10:56,990 --> 01:10:54,360
it's gonna be protected as much as

1530
01:10:58,550 --> 01:10:57,000
possible and and where is the phenomena

1531
01:11:04,070 --> 01:10:58,560
hiding you know I mean it's in plain

1532
01:11:07,430 --> 01:11:04,080
sight I'm a guy you know who just wants

1533
01:11:12,410 --> 01:11:07,440
to know stuff and and I know something

1534
01:11:13,850 --> 01:11:12,420
about it it's it's in plain sight people

1535
01:11:16,220 --> 01:11:13,860
ask me what is the response to your

1536
01:11:18,939 --> 01:11:16,230
magnificent book and I stand there

1537
01:11:21,650 --> 01:11:18,949
saying nothing until they get to joke

1538
01:11:24,140 --> 01:11:21,660
it's response to silence that if you're

1539
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:24,150
not going to respond to an event it's

1540
01:11:28,670 --> 01:11:26,880
threatening like a true book on the

1541
01:11:31,729 --> 01:11:28,680
subject and how the cover responded to

1542
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:31,739
it just say nothing and distract people

1543
01:11:37,070 --> 01:11:34,410
illusion misdirection distraction and

1544
01:11:41,060 --> 01:11:37,080
ridicule are the hallmarks of covering

1545
01:11:45,590 --> 01:11:41,070
deception operations and do those do

1546
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:45,600
those well and nobody is going to know

1547
01:11:50,090 --> 01:11:48,570
what you know even when you stand in the

1548
01:11:51,470 --> 01:11:50,100
middle of the marketplace and scream at

1549
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:51,480
the top of your lungs in fact the more

1550
01:11:57,830 --> 01:11:53,730
you scream it the more people will think

1551
01:12:00,439 --> 01:11:57,840
that you do crazy the interesting to

1552
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:00,449
know how many people have read your book

1553
01:12:08,630 --> 01:12:03,290
know that know something about the topic

1554
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:08,640
well I know yeah I know some some have

1555
01:12:15,740 --> 01:12:13,199
read it I have Chris Mellon actually

1556
01:12:19,959 --> 01:12:15,750
just bought copies of my short stories

1557
01:12:23,060 --> 01:12:19,969
mind games for himself and his son

1558
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:23,070
because the very first story is called

1559
01:12:31,190 --> 01:12:26,489
zero day Roswell and it discusses

1560
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:31,200
people would manage an event like that's

1561
01:12:38,270 --> 01:12:34,730
told by fiction and it's told by

1562
01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:38,280
intelligent Asian on his deathbed and

1563
01:12:43,370 --> 01:12:40,950
Chris thought that was pretty good now I

1564
01:12:47,660 --> 01:12:43,380
don't know what he did if you look at

1565
01:12:52,180 --> 01:12:47,670
his resume on LinkedIn you see there's a

1566
01:12:55,250 --> 01:12:52,190
big gap right about 12 years hmm Wow

1567
01:12:59,150 --> 01:12:55,260
yeah I mean it's right there for all to

1568
01:13:03,110 --> 01:12:59,160
see now someone could say well if he was

1569
01:13:05,180 --> 01:13:03,120
doing something deep black there would

1570
01:13:09,530 --> 01:13:05,190
be a cover story that you couldn't

1571
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:09,540
penetrate what is the gap he's worked at

1572
01:13:13,959 --> 01:13:11,370
intelligence before and after that

1573
01:13:16,220 --> 01:13:13,969
12-year period I think it's 12 years

1574
01:13:17,990 --> 01:13:16,230
he's worked on intelligence committees

1575
01:13:20,030 --> 01:13:18,000
and now he is

1576
01:13:25,209 --> 01:13:20,040
I believe chairing the board that Tom

1577
01:13:28,250 --> 01:13:25,219
DeLonge has established for his

1578
01:13:32,390 --> 01:13:28,260
entertainment and educational enterprise

1579
01:13:33,830 --> 01:13:32,400
called to the stars and some of the

1580
01:13:38,570 --> 01:13:33,840
people whose names are on the board

1581
01:13:40,700 --> 01:13:38,580
sound pretty credible but well you know

1582
01:13:43,729 --> 01:13:40,710
you me I've listened to the list of the

1583
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:43,739
long interviews with Chris and I'm left

1584
01:13:48,229 --> 01:13:45,090
saying this is interesting does he

1585
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:48,239
really not know any more than what he

1586
01:13:52,670 --> 01:13:49,530
knows I mean I was talking to somebody

1587
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:52,680
who knew curse Corso for example who

1588
01:13:58,250 --> 01:13:54,690
wrote the day after Roswell yeah and he

1589
01:14:02,000 --> 01:13:58,260
knew him pretty well and my friend was

1590
01:14:04,190 --> 01:14:02,010
very credible and he said he asked Corso

1591
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:04,200
where they might find documents about

1592
01:14:09,350 --> 01:14:06,570
this because we were discussing somebody

1593
01:14:11,780 --> 01:14:09,360
in the Navy who was likely the person

1594
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:11,790
who would have done what Corso said he

1595
01:14:16,190 --> 01:14:13,650
did in the army

1596
01:14:19,310 --> 01:14:16,200
that is managed the distribution of

1597
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:19,320
materials to do research on that have

1598
01:14:24,140 --> 01:14:21,810
been covered from the crash it is it

1599
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:24,150
such took place and he said he asked or

1600
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:28,770
so of course who said there is no there

1601
01:14:35,900 --> 01:14:31,890
are no documents the conversations

1602
01:14:36,970 --> 01:14:35,910
happen in out-of-the-way places they are

1603
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:36,980
not recorded

1604
01:14:40,129 --> 01:14:39,810
I've had people on black projects tell

1605
01:14:42,229 --> 01:14:40,139
me

1606
01:14:45,770 --> 01:14:42,239
convened from different parts of the

1607
01:14:47,629 --> 01:14:45,780
country went into an elevator and went

1608
01:14:49,069 --> 01:14:47,639
down down down down down and found

1609
01:14:52,129 --> 01:14:49,079
themselves a beautiful conference room

1610
01:14:53,989 --> 01:14:52,139
and had the discussion in the bowels of

1611
01:14:55,549 --> 01:14:53,999
the earth about the project on which

1612
01:14:59,259 --> 01:14:55,559
they were working came back up and they

1613
01:15:01,580 --> 01:14:59,269
scattered to the winds again and nobody

1614
01:15:06,009 --> 01:15:01,590
talked about it with anybody else and

1615
01:15:09,139 --> 01:15:06,019
there are no minutes in some archives

1616
01:15:10,669 --> 01:15:09,149
there's nothing to recover of course I

1617
01:15:12,949 --> 01:15:10,679
said that's the way it was when he

1618
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:12,959
worked on that project how did he or

1619
01:15:17,239 --> 01:15:14,489
didn't he was the counterintelligence

1620
01:15:18,919 --> 01:15:17,249
agents just reading a story in the book

1621
01:15:21,589 --> 01:15:18,929
is flawed because there's no footnotes

1622
01:15:23,629 --> 01:15:21,599
there's no pointers to anything anybody

1623
01:15:25,699 --> 01:15:23,639
can find you know assist in telling a

1624
01:15:29,029 --> 01:15:25,709
story right and there's there's a

1625
01:15:31,729 --> 01:15:29,039
controversy about that that's right and

1626
01:15:33,649 --> 01:15:31,739
that appropriately so but you can waste

1627
01:15:35,719 --> 01:15:33,659
a lot of time spinning your wheels on

1628
01:15:38,569 --> 01:15:35,729
that one because there's no other data

1629
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:38,579
that will make your evaluation of a tilt

1630
01:15:43,699 --> 01:15:41,130
one way or the other now when you were

1631
01:15:45,919 --> 01:15:43,709
doing your research go ahead pardon me

1632
01:15:48,620 --> 01:15:45,929
when you're doing the research for your

1633
01:15:51,379 --> 01:15:48,630
book how much of it was involved in

1634
01:15:55,549 --> 01:15:51,389
getting you know freed of Freedom of

1635
01:15:59,209 --> 01:15:55,559
Information Act you know retrievals of

1636
01:16:00,919 --> 01:15:59,219
the documents well you know you really

1637
01:16:02,359 --> 01:16:00,929
need you really need to talk to Barry

1638
01:16:06,889 --> 01:16:02,369
Greenwood about that and you probably

1639
01:16:10,219 --> 01:16:06,899
should Barry wrote with Fossett clear

1640
01:16:12,919 --> 01:16:10,229
intent and this is one of the things we

1641
01:16:15,589 --> 01:16:12,929
do document in the book that after a

1642
01:16:20,029 --> 01:16:15,599
blue book closed down and the government

1643
01:16:21,699 --> 01:16:20,039
had no interest anymore in UFOs

1644
01:16:25,549 --> 01:16:21,709
nevertheless there were these

1645
01:16:28,370 --> 01:16:25,559
fascinating incursions right over the

1646
01:16:33,169 --> 01:16:28,380
northern tier of bases whether it is

1647
01:16:35,779 --> 01:16:33,179
Minot or Malmstrom or peas or or in

1648
01:16:39,500 --> 01:16:35,789
Canada on both sides of the line there

1649
01:16:42,409 --> 01:16:39,510
were a series of events that were rather

1650
01:16:45,469 --> 01:16:42,419
striking and using Freedom of

1651
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:45,479
Information and other means very managed

1652
01:16:50,929 --> 01:16:48,449
to document that the vehicles in

1653
01:16:53,179 --> 01:16:50,939
question demonstrated quote a clear

1654
01:16:54,110 --> 01:16:53,189
intent unquote hence the title of the

1655
01:16:56,720 --> 01:16:54,120
book

1656
01:17:00,020 --> 01:16:56,730
Oya was very very important in the early

1657
01:17:03,380 --> 01:17:00,030
days when it really worked in other

1658
01:17:06,970 --> 01:17:03,390
words when it was established people

1659
01:17:10,370 --> 01:17:06,980
responded to it but once Reagan came in

1660
01:17:14,180 --> 01:17:10,380
1980 he did what he could to make it

1661
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:14,190
ineffective really and yeah yeah and

1662
01:17:17,420 --> 01:17:16,050
you're not going to get you can do you

1663
01:17:20,270 --> 01:17:17,430
can do it there's certain areas where it

1664
01:17:22,100 --> 01:17:20,280
can be useful but in this area you're

1665
01:17:24,950 --> 01:17:22,110
not gonna get much and and of course

1666
01:17:26,780 --> 01:17:24,960
I've had people tell me that when we

1667
01:17:28,700 --> 01:17:26,790
don't want something retrieved through

1668
01:17:32,590 --> 01:17:28,710
FOIA we cross-referenced the filing

1669
01:17:36,890 --> 01:17:32,600
system so that it's in a file marked

1670
01:17:39,050 --> 01:17:36,900
avocados and pears and it's really about

1671
01:17:41,090 --> 01:17:39,060
UFOs you're not going to say I'm

1672
01:17:42,740 --> 01:17:41,100
searching for UFOs and so we have you'll

1673
01:17:45,410 --> 01:17:42,750
get a letter back saying we have nothing

1674
01:17:48,380 --> 01:17:45,420
to that effect thank you for asking or

1675
01:17:50,420 --> 01:17:48,390
we'll say yes we found 10,000 pages and

1676
01:17:53,480 --> 01:17:50,430
we will be glad to duplicate them at a

1677
01:17:56,900 --> 01:17:53,490
cost of X number of cents per page and

1678
01:18:00,380 --> 01:17:56,910
right and and then deliver a treasure

1679
01:18:03,590 --> 01:18:00,390
trove of most mostly worthless paper to

1680
01:18:05,620 --> 01:18:03,600
you cause up the money so it's not as

1681
01:18:08,630 --> 01:18:05,630
effective than it used to be but it was

1682
01:18:11,420 --> 01:18:08,640
in the earlier days very very important

1683
01:18:15,580 --> 01:18:11,430
I know John Greenwald has it down to a

1684
01:18:18,410 --> 01:18:15,590
science how to inquire properly yeah

1685
01:18:23,150 --> 01:18:18,420
yeah yeah and you do you have to make it

1686
01:18:25,610 --> 01:18:23,160
a specialization right to know how to

1687
01:18:28,370 --> 01:18:25,620
get the information and then that's why

1688
01:18:29,900 --> 01:18:28,380
the team approach was was so important I

1689
01:18:32,540 --> 01:18:29,910
mean there are some names that aren't on

1690
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:32,550
the cover of the book we have nine names

1691
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:33,930
on the cover and there are a couple more

1692
01:18:40,130 --> 01:18:36,570
people who didn't want their names on it

1693
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:40,140
for different good reasons Wow but it

1694
01:18:45,290 --> 01:18:44,010
was a team we met that weekend decided

1695
01:18:46,930 --> 01:18:45,300
what was going to be done and we didn't

1696
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:46,940
meet again until the book was complete

1697
01:18:52,550 --> 01:18:49,650
for five years everything was done over

1698
01:18:54,380 --> 01:18:52,560
the Internet no chapters were written

1699
01:18:57,280 --> 01:18:54,390
chapters were disseminated materials

1700
01:19:01,250 --> 01:18:57,290
were discussed editing took place and

1701
01:19:03,710 --> 01:19:01,260
then it was put together it was I'm so

1702
01:19:05,180 --> 01:19:03,720
proud of that book really well that's

1703
01:19:07,669 --> 01:19:05,190
great I mean just to hear that it's in

1704
01:19:11,270 --> 01:19:07,679
so many universities is quite a me

1705
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:11,280
think early on question came up in the

1706
01:19:17,509 --> 01:19:14,489
chat room and that was what do you think

1707
01:19:18,830 --> 01:19:17,519
the in all your research that you've

1708
01:19:23,629 --> 01:19:18,840
done what do you think is the most

1709
01:19:26,719 --> 01:19:23,639
interesting or you know amazing case I

1710
01:19:31,429 --> 01:19:26,729
guess I'll say it that way involved in

1711
01:19:34,580 --> 01:19:31,439
you know in the UFO topic what what are

1712
01:19:35,989 --> 01:19:34,590
the most important cases yeah just the

1713
01:19:39,319 --> 01:19:35,999
person wanted to know what you thought

1714
01:19:44,239 --> 01:19:39,329
was the most you know important case

1715
01:19:46,969 --> 01:19:44,249
that you have in the book well you know

1716
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:46,979
I don't know if I'd choose the most

1717
01:19:52,279 --> 01:19:50,010
important case there you know there's

1718
01:19:55,850 --> 01:19:52,289
there's so many critical pieces that

1719
01:19:58,429 --> 01:19:55,860
that go to make up the mosaic of the

1720
01:20:01,489 --> 01:19:58,439
narrative but I would say that one of

1721
01:20:05,089 --> 01:20:01,499
the most important incidents was the

1722
01:20:06,830 --> 01:20:05,099
1952 overflight of Washington DC in July

1723
01:20:11,029 --> 01:20:06,840
mm-hmm

1724
01:20:13,969 --> 01:20:11,039
because you probably know so many UFOs

1725
01:20:16,279 --> 01:20:13,979
were were seen they were seen from the

1726
01:20:17,750 --> 01:20:16,289
ground they were seen by pilots who were

1727
01:20:21,049 --> 01:20:17,760
scrambled from I believe it was three

1728
01:20:22,370 --> 01:20:21,059
Air Force bases they were seen on radar

1729
01:20:24,830 --> 01:20:22,380
mm-hmm

1730
01:20:27,620 --> 01:20:24,840
we have a facsimile of the radar screen

1731
01:20:29,719 --> 01:20:27,630
showing one of the Jets in pursuit being

1732
01:20:31,219 --> 01:20:29,729
surrounded by UFOs what scared the hell

1733
01:20:33,169 --> 01:20:31,229
out of him Wow

1734
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:33,179
because he was theoretically in pursuit

1735
01:20:39,199 --> 01:20:35,489
and they just stopped fleeing and all

1736
01:20:41,629 --> 01:20:39,209
closed in on him and you know he said

1737
01:20:46,489 --> 01:20:41,639
ineffectual what do I do

1738
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:46,499
yeah but it was well documented lots of

1739
01:20:49,819 --> 01:20:48,090
people saw it and called the Pentagon

1740
01:20:58,520 --> 01:20:49,829
switchboard to find out what was going

1741
01:21:01,609 --> 01:20:58,530
on and they they shut down the

1742
01:21:04,399 --> 01:21:01,619
switchboard and that was one of the

1743
01:21:06,770 --> 01:21:04,409
effects that led them to blazes this

1744
01:21:08,449 --> 01:21:06,780
thing has to be tamp down it wasn't the

1745
01:21:10,609 --> 01:21:08,459
only reason there was concern about the

1746
01:21:12,049 --> 01:21:10,619
Soviets in the Cold War but you didn't

1747
01:21:13,489 --> 01:21:12,059
want our communications we didn't have

1748
01:21:15,649 --> 01:21:13,499
redundant satellite communications

1749
01:21:18,890 --> 01:21:15,659
interfered with them in that way and it

1750
01:21:21,500 --> 01:21:18,900
was during that incident because so many

1751
01:21:23,180 --> 01:21:21,510
people saw it it was covered and

1752
01:21:25,220 --> 01:21:23,190
when I do a talk on the book I show a

1753
01:21:27,799 --> 01:21:25,230
front page of the Washington Post now

1754
01:21:30,580 --> 01:21:27,809
the relationship of the media to the

1755
01:21:33,290 --> 01:21:30,590
phenomena is very interesting one tres

1756
01:21:36,410 --> 01:21:33,300
because there were hundreds of

1757
01:21:38,839 --> 01:21:36,420
front-page stories I show half a dozen

1758
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:38,849
of them but Washington Post as a famous

1759
01:21:44,779 --> 01:21:40,650
headline that says saucer eludes jet

1760
01:21:46,759 --> 01:21:44,789
pilot reveals it was nose and it

1761
01:21:50,180 --> 01:21:46,769
remained news for some time and it was

1762
01:21:55,180 --> 01:21:50,190
treated as news because the people

1763
01:21:59,450 --> 01:21:55,190
making the reports were so so credible

1764
01:22:02,270 --> 01:21:59,460
as general Sanford said credible people

1765
01:22:05,299 --> 01:22:02,280
have seen incredible things right and

1766
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:05,309
and so you watch the morphing of the

1767
01:22:10,189 --> 01:22:07,170
news into the National Enquirer silly

1768
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:10,199
stories space aliens drain my blood and

1769
01:22:16,459 --> 01:22:12,570
replaced it with a viscous yellow fluid

1770
01:22:18,500 --> 01:22:16,469
was the headline in one and and then

1771
01:22:22,879 --> 01:22:18,510
nobody takes it seriously but for a long

1772
01:22:25,189 --> 01:22:22,889
long time it was simply news and the 52

1773
01:22:28,370 --> 01:22:25,199
incident is one and they had press

1774
01:22:32,149 --> 01:22:28,380
conferences and some of them tried to

1775
01:22:35,180 --> 01:22:32,159
speak honestly to the event but they

1776
01:22:39,080 --> 01:22:35,190
came up with an inversion as the reason

1777
01:22:40,790 --> 01:22:39,090
for all this and overwash and of course

1778
01:22:42,649 --> 01:22:40,800
the weather weather reports didn't

1779
01:22:46,100 --> 01:22:42,659
support the existence of an inversion so

1780
01:22:49,569 --> 01:22:46,110
on and so you watch you watch a big

1781
01:22:52,549 --> 01:22:49,579
switch then where they decided to use

1782
01:22:54,109 --> 01:22:52,559
celebrities like Arthur Godfrey they

1783
01:22:57,290 --> 01:22:54,119
would put credible people like Walter

1784
01:23:00,649 --> 01:22:57,300
Cronkite at the fore of debunking and

1785
01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:00,659
then people would trust them with their

1786
01:23:06,140 --> 01:23:03,090
narratives Cronkite did a famous story

1787
01:23:07,459 --> 01:23:06,150
in UFOs an hour long I think and he

1788
01:23:08,990 --> 01:23:07,469
would show something that looks really

1789
01:23:10,459 --> 01:23:09,000
credible and just when people get into

1790
01:23:12,410 --> 01:23:10,469
it he said but this is what really

1791
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:12,420
happened so he left people with the

1792
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:13,650
impression that there wasn't a single

1793
01:23:20,450 --> 01:23:16,530
UFO event that could not be explained

1794
01:23:23,390 --> 01:23:20,460
away in in fact of course there are many

1795
01:23:25,669 --> 01:23:23,400
thousands of UFO events that cannot be

1796
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:25,679
explained away except as encounters with

1797
01:23:34,850 --> 01:23:32,010
anomalous beings whether remotely or or

1798
01:23:35,390 --> 01:23:34,860
currently present in the craft we don't

1799
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:35,400
know if it's

1800
01:23:41,390 --> 01:23:39,090
control we don't know if they're evolved

1801
01:23:45,380 --> 01:23:41,400
or self-defined evolution as we are now

1802
01:23:47,090 --> 01:23:45,390
about to do for our own species I don't

1803
01:23:52,450 --> 01:23:47,100
think we know the answers to these but

1804
01:23:55,430 --> 01:23:52,460
intelligence clearly is there and and

1805
01:23:57,830 --> 01:23:55,440
and so when you say what what what is

1806
01:24:01,610 --> 01:23:57,840
the most what was most important is the

1807
01:24:04,820 --> 01:24:01,620
cumulative evidence and data of so many

1808
01:24:06,770 --> 01:24:04,830
people and I have interviewed so many

1809
01:24:09,770 --> 01:24:06,780
people and when I do talks in the book

1810
01:24:12,830 --> 01:24:09,780
almost every time somebody stands up at

1811
01:24:14,750 --> 01:24:12,840
the end of the hour and says I've never

1812
01:24:15,620 --> 01:24:14,760
told anybody this but I've got to tell

1813
01:24:17,870 --> 01:24:15,630
you what happened to me

1814
01:24:19,430 --> 01:24:17,880
mmm and they often preface it by saying

1815
01:24:20,899 --> 01:24:19,440
I don't want you to think I was drinking

1816
01:24:24,260 --> 01:24:20,909
or I don't want you to think I was crazy

1817
01:24:27,860 --> 01:24:24,270
yeah because it's been so effective to

1818
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:27,870
apply those those labels to people yes

1819
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:30,330
and people internalize it and yet they

1820
01:24:35,899 --> 01:24:33,690
talk to one another and it's kinda I do

1821
01:24:38,209 --> 01:24:35,909
a talk on trauma in the intelligence

1822
01:24:41,360 --> 01:24:38,219
community and security worlds of what

1823
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:41,370
doing that work does to someone and it's

1824
01:24:46,220 --> 01:24:43,679
very similar when you talk to people

1825
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:46,230
who've had UFO encounters because they

1826
01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:49,010
have to keep it secret too often enough

1827
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:52,050
not because they signed a need-to-know

1828
01:24:57,380 --> 01:24:54,810
agreement but because of ridicule has

1829
01:25:00,080 --> 01:24:57,390
been so effective and the traumatic

1830
01:25:03,200 --> 01:25:00,090
impact on them is the same one of the

1831
01:25:05,090 --> 01:25:03,210
effects is that you become obsessed the

1832
01:25:06,470 --> 01:25:05,100
image of Richard Dreyfuss in Close

1833
01:25:09,649 --> 01:25:06,480
Encounters of the Third Kind building

1834
01:25:12,020 --> 01:25:09,659
his model of Devil's Tower while though

1835
01:25:14,149 --> 01:25:12,030
far-fetched and cartoonish

1836
01:25:16,340 --> 01:25:14,159
I've talked to people who couldn't ever

1837
01:25:17,780 --> 01:25:16,350
put it down and I spent the rest of

1838
01:25:20,930 --> 01:25:17,790
their lives reading everything they can

1839
01:25:22,430 --> 01:25:20,940
get their hands on to try to understand

1840
01:25:26,630 --> 01:25:22,440
what it was that happened to them and in

1841
01:25:29,860 --> 01:25:26,640
that it was like a religious experience

1842
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:29,870
in some ways in that it caused a

1843
01:25:36,350 --> 01:25:32,489
contextual shift in their understanding

1844
01:25:39,590 --> 01:25:36,360
of everything and not least of which was

1845
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:39,600
Who am I in relation to this and Who am

1846
01:25:44,180 --> 01:25:41,370
I in relationship to the universe and

1847
01:25:47,419 --> 01:25:44,190
you can't go down that that road without

1848
01:25:49,220 --> 01:25:47,429
a spiritual impact taking place and

1849
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:49,230
people manage spirits

1850
01:25:56,420 --> 01:25:52,730
impacts by seeking for religious answers

1851
01:25:58,190 --> 01:25:56,430
you don't need an explanation but but

1852
01:25:59,960 --> 01:25:58,200
you go deeper into what is the meaning

1853
01:26:01,970 --> 01:25:59,970
of all this and who are we in

1854
01:26:04,670 --> 01:26:01,980
relationship to the universe and if

1855
01:26:06,670 --> 01:26:04,680
we're not the apple of God's eye and

1856
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:06,680
we're not the top of the food chain

1857
01:26:12,590 --> 01:26:09,570
what is this universe about and and then

1858
01:26:15,050 --> 01:26:12,600
the ultimate mystery is over the decades

1859
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:15,060
there seems to have been a progressive

1860
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:19,370
revelation or display selectively

1861
01:26:26,030 --> 01:26:23,130
strategically to engineer exactly the

1862
01:26:28,580 --> 01:26:26,040
State of Mind which we have now which is

1863
01:26:31,220 --> 01:26:28,590
everybody knows about this now nobody

1864
01:26:34,430 --> 01:26:31,230
would be shocked if someone finally

1865
01:26:35,930 --> 01:26:34,440
owned up and we got not not disclosure

1866
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:35,940
we don't need disclosure it's all

1867
01:26:43,850 --> 01:26:39,050
disclosed out here but confirmation of

1868
01:26:46,010 --> 01:26:43,860
what we already know so when you go back

1869
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:46,020
to the fifties forties fifties sixties

1870
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:48,810
forward and just say well why didn't he

1871
01:26:56,030 --> 01:26:52,410
land on the White House lawn well that's

1872
01:26:58,310 --> 01:26:56,040
not the game obviously how do you know

1873
01:26:59,479 --> 01:26:58,320
that because they didn't nobody landed

1874
01:26:59,780 --> 01:26:59,489
on the White House lawn well what did

1875
01:27:02,390 --> 01:26:59,790
they do

1876
01:27:05,420 --> 01:27:02,400
they appeared to a few groups here and

1877
01:27:07,940 --> 01:27:05,430
there in the night far away in rural

1878
01:27:10,370 --> 01:27:07,950
areas they didn't just buzz and hang

1879
01:27:13,070 --> 01:27:10,380
over cities like Hollywood depicts them

1880
01:27:16,190 --> 01:27:13,080
doing they did it progressively and the

1881
01:27:19,310 --> 01:27:16,200
story spread and images spread and

1882
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:19,320
videos spread and photographs spread and

1883
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:23,489
pretty soon over decades the mind of

1884
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:28,170
society has been altered and Jacque lay

1885
01:27:33,410 --> 01:27:31,050
plunged into that Malstrom by concluding

1886
01:27:35,450 --> 01:27:33,420
it was a control mechanism and was more

1887
01:27:37,700 --> 01:27:35,460
interested in the alteration than in the

1888
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:37,710
source of the alteration I don't I don't

1889
01:27:44,030 --> 01:27:41,010
go that far but it certainly resulted in

1890
01:27:48,350 --> 01:27:44,040
a transformational experience on behalf

1891
01:27:51,530 --> 01:27:48,360
of all humankind and part of that is the

1892
01:27:53,780 --> 01:27:51,540
knowledge that we're not alone well now

1893
01:27:56,510 --> 01:27:53,790
why do you think science won't take a

1894
01:28:00,440 --> 01:27:56,520
heart most science won't take a hard

1895
01:28:02,430 --> 01:28:00,450
look at the subject well vertical factor

1896
01:28:05,910 --> 01:28:02,440
in the law

1897
01:28:08,760 --> 01:28:05,920
question and group groupthink and just

1898
01:28:10,709 --> 01:28:08,770
as when I'm talking about security

1899
01:28:11,970 --> 01:28:10,719
issues that cause trauma people say well

1900
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:11,980
I don't want to lose face in front of my

1901
01:28:17,400 --> 01:28:13,930
peers I don't want people to think I'm a

1902
01:28:19,740 --> 01:28:17,410
wuss the impact of peer pressure and

1903
01:28:21,750 --> 01:28:19,750
groupthink is significant especially if

1904
01:28:25,950 --> 01:28:21,760
you know it's going to impact your your

1905
01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:25,960
career you know airline pilots have told

1906
01:28:29,310 --> 01:28:27,730
me we talk to each other about our

1907
01:28:30,930 --> 01:28:29,320
settings fighter pilots have told me

1908
01:28:33,770 --> 01:28:30,940
that but we're not going to say anything

1909
01:28:36,450 --> 01:28:33,780
out loud because our careers are over

1910
01:28:37,620 --> 01:28:36,460
well it's pretty much true once you have

1911
01:28:40,740 --> 01:28:37,630
an orthodoxy

1912
01:28:44,550 --> 01:28:40,750
that's embraced by a scientific

1913
01:28:46,470 --> 01:28:44,560
discipline or domain you contradict it

1914
01:28:48,689 --> 01:28:46,480
to your peril

1915
01:28:52,290 --> 01:28:48,699
you know the stories about meteorites

1916
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:52,300
and tectonic plates and so on and what

1917
01:28:56,820 --> 01:28:54,130
it did to people to advance those

1918
01:29:00,750 --> 01:28:56,830
theories over time and face rejection

1919
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:00,760
ridicule and scorn

1920
01:29:06,060 --> 01:29:03,850
well once that becomes firmly placed and

1921
01:29:09,209 --> 01:29:06,070
and for the reasons I said began in the

1922
01:29:14,790 --> 01:29:09,219
50s and have been policies that were so

1923
01:29:17,010 --> 01:29:14,800
well executed scientists too are not

1924
01:29:21,510 --> 01:29:17,020
going to go into those waters without

1925
01:29:26,180 --> 01:29:21,520
risking their their their careers there

1926
01:29:28,110 --> 01:29:26,190
are some really good books by scientists

1927
01:29:31,380 --> 01:29:28,120
about that

1928
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:31,390
Peter Stewart confessions of a late

1929
01:29:37,620 --> 01:29:34,690
night scientist or a tale of two

1930
01:29:40,050 --> 01:29:37,630
sciences in which he describes his

1931
01:29:42,870 --> 01:29:40,060
career which was very successful as a

1932
01:29:45,660 --> 01:29:42,880
plasma physicist and then his interest

1933
01:29:49,470 --> 01:29:45,670
in UFOs and the paranormal and how he

1934
01:29:52,350 --> 01:29:49,480
could not get anyone engaged with that

1935
01:29:54,450 --> 01:29:52,360
subject in a serious way and and the

1936
01:29:57,689 --> 01:29:54,460
kind of dismissive things they would say

1937
01:30:01,130 --> 01:29:57,699
simply because he said this needs to be

1938
01:30:03,540 --> 01:30:01,140
something you take seriously hmm well

1939
01:30:05,010 --> 01:30:03,550
and and that's how we're saying we're

1940
01:30:07,830 --> 01:30:05,020
saying this is a real phenomena we're

1941
01:30:09,540 --> 01:30:07,840
very conservative right but it's

1942
01:30:11,459 --> 01:30:09,550
impossible to read that before for

1943
01:30:14,340 --> 01:30:11,469
example our book or other books without

1944
01:30:15,930 --> 01:30:14,350
saying well there's the nose of a camel

1945
01:30:18,270 --> 01:30:15,940
inside our tent here

1946
01:30:21,570 --> 01:30:18,280
I bet there's a whole camel you know

1947
01:30:23,340 --> 01:30:21,580
sticking its butt out into the dark you

1948
01:30:24,959 --> 01:30:23,350
can't read the accounts of why the

1949
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:24,969
government did what it did and how it

1950
01:30:28,979 --> 01:30:27,130
did it without saying they're dealing

1951
01:30:31,229 --> 01:30:28,989
with something significant important and

1952
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:31,239
hopefully concluding I want to know more

1953
01:30:36,510 --> 01:30:33,130
about that because I think it's one of

1954
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:36,520
the most significant realities of our

1955
01:30:43,380 --> 01:30:41,130
time when I start talking about

1956
01:30:45,510 --> 01:30:43,390
technological transformation the society

1957
01:30:49,950 --> 01:30:45,520
I literally was told in the 80s that I

1958
01:30:51,990 --> 01:30:49,960
was crazy that that what I said made no

1959
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:52,000
sense when I described what the

1960
01:30:56,010 --> 01:30:54,010
computerization digitalization the world

1961
01:30:58,709 --> 01:30:56,020
was going to do to everything from

1962
01:31:01,280 --> 01:30:58,719
identity to to intelligence work to

1963
01:31:03,900 --> 01:31:01,290
organizational structures to education

1964
01:31:04,229 --> 01:31:03,910
and in the early days people said you're

1965
01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:04,239
nuts

1966
01:31:08,310 --> 01:31:06,610
well now everything that I said in the

1967
01:31:11,459 --> 01:31:08,320
80s and 90s was going to come install

1968
01:31:13,650 --> 01:31:11,469
here we're living inside that and and

1969
01:31:15,750 --> 01:31:13,660
now it's this one where I say the

1970
01:31:18,780 --> 01:31:15,760
critical event of the 21st century is

1971
01:31:20,970 --> 01:31:18,790
going to be not just that we know but

1972
01:31:24,450 --> 01:31:20,980
that we know that we know that we are

1973
01:31:26,729 --> 01:31:24,460
not alone because we have engaged in an

1974
01:31:30,270 --> 01:31:26,739
undeniable way with sentient

1975
01:31:34,350 --> 01:31:30,280
intelligence transgalactic that is not

1976
01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:34,360
us and that is going to that is going to

1977
01:31:40,130 --> 01:31:37,930
change everything in the same way that

1978
01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:40,140
the computer revolution has changed

1979
01:31:45,300 --> 01:31:41,530
everything

1980
01:31:48,630 --> 01:31:45,310
right now a lot of times I have the the

1981
01:31:52,709 --> 01:31:48,640
feeling that it would just take so much

1982
01:31:57,570 --> 01:31:52,719
to convince society as a whole even if

1983
01:32:00,990 --> 01:31:57,580
there were solid proof you know that we

1984
01:32:02,689 --> 01:32:01,000
are being visited let's just say we

1985
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:02,699
found out that we are being visited by

1986
01:32:09,660 --> 01:32:05,410
extraterrestrial we had evidence say

1987
01:32:11,250 --> 01:32:09,670
right a craft or or whatever it is or

1988
01:32:13,229 --> 01:32:11,260
you know a major mass sighting of

1989
01:32:15,390 --> 01:32:13,239
something unexplainable we've already

1990
01:32:18,240 --> 01:32:15,400
had you know some like the Phoenix

1991
01:32:21,180 --> 01:32:18,250
lights and stuff like that but what do

1992
01:32:23,939 --> 01:32:21,190
you think it would take for you know

1993
01:32:28,419 --> 01:32:23,949
since there is so much ridicule on the

1994
01:32:29,949 --> 01:32:28,429
topic and as time has gone on

1995
01:32:34,270 --> 01:32:29,959
what do you think it would take to

1996
01:32:36,609 --> 01:32:34,280
convince the mass public that we are

1997
01:32:39,429 --> 01:32:36,619
being well the one of the jokes in the

1998
01:32:44,199 --> 01:32:39,439
field is there are two kinds of people

1999
01:32:46,810 --> 01:32:44,209
they're skeptics and experiencers what

2000
01:32:49,739 --> 01:32:46,820
it takes and we have numerous stories

2001
01:32:51,790 --> 01:32:49,749
like this where someone didn't believe

2002
01:32:55,959 --> 01:32:51,800
quote-unquote as if belief was the

2003
01:32:59,319 --> 01:32:55,969
Crescent question in UFOs and and then

2004
01:33:01,330 --> 01:32:59,329
stood there one night and watched as a

2005
01:33:02,890 --> 01:33:01,340
young person described to me once I saw

2006
01:33:05,859 --> 01:33:02,900
what looked like three satellites

2007
01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:05,869
crossing the sky and suddenly one

2008
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:07,610
continued which was obviously a

2009
01:33:13,239 --> 01:33:10,010
satellite and the other two stopped and

2010
01:33:17,859 --> 01:33:13,249
then zipped in the other direction and

2011
01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:17,869
they said my god what was it well you

2012
01:33:23,819 --> 01:33:19,489
escalate your hypothesis you know maybe

2013
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:23,829
it was this man who says but more more

2014
01:33:32,020 --> 01:33:27,530
immediately if you have seen a bright

2015
01:33:35,410 --> 01:33:32,030
light craft some kind of luminous

2016
01:33:39,189 --> 01:33:35,420
vehicle and in your experience of

2017
01:33:42,879 --> 01:33:39,199
looking at it you had what you were sure

2018
01:33:44,890 --> 01:33:42,889
were words put into your mind as some of

2019
01:33:47,350 --> 01:33:44,900
the things I've heard a lot people say

2020
01:33:49,270 --> 01:33:47,360
now they may may be deception on the

2021
01:33:51,879 --> 01:33:49,280
part of whoever's on the craft but the

2022
01:33:54,129 --> 01:33:51,889
words were don't be afraid we're not

2023
01:33:57,270 --> 01:33:54,139
going to hurt you and they didn't and

2024
01:33:59,649 --> 01:33:57,280
the other was we wanted you to see us

2025
01:34:02,169 --> 01:33:59,659
which supports the hypothesis I

2026
01:34:05,140 --> 01:34:02,179
suggested about display and intentional

2027
01:34:08,709 --> 01:34:05,150
revelation over time once you have that

2028
01:34:12,969 --> 01:34:08,719
kind of experience you don't ever doubt

2029
01:34:16,500 --> 01:34:12,979
it again so this is the end the other of

2030
01:34:19,299 --> 01:34:16,510
course is like I have done I have never

2031
01:34:24,009 --> 01:34:19,309
had an experience well I shouldn't say

2032
01:34:27,250 --> 01:34:24,019
that one but I don't talk about it but

2033
01:34:29,529 --> 01:34:27,260
all this study over 40 years looking at

2034
01:34:31,629 --> 01:34:29,539
the data and interviewing people ranging

2035
01:34:34,660 --> 01:34:31,639
from astronauts to fighter pilots to

2036
01:34:36,729 --> 01:34:34,670
just plain people who went for a walk in

2037
01:34:40,350 --> 01:34:36,739
the woods one night and encountered a

2038
01:34:46,750 --> 01:34:44,200
if that doesn't change your mind it's

2039
01:34:48,430 --> 01:34:46,760
because you're so adamantly committed to

2040
01:34:51,729 --> 01:34:48,440
not wanting it to be true

2041
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:51,739
hmm because if threatens your identity

2042
01:34:57,870 --> 01:34:54,410
and your sense of who humans are and/or

2043
01:35:00,280 --> 01:34:57,880
your religious beliefs as you suggest or

2044
01:35:02,979 --> 01:35:00,290
it just doesn't fit your paradigm you

2045
01:35:03,580 --> 01:35:02,989
don't know how to restructure your your

2046
01:35:09,390 --> 01:35:03,590
thinking

2047
01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:09,400
mmm-hmm to take it in but over time I

2048
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:12,890
mean it took me a long time I mean I

2049
01:35:18,459 --> 01:35:16,010
explored this for years and I still

2050
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:18,469
found myself thinking not anymore really

2051
01:35:24,610 --> 01:35:20,690
but recently huh

2052
01:35:29,590 --> 01:35:24,620
so this is all true then and that's

2053
01:35:33,340 --> 01:35:29,600
after decades mmm it it takes energy and

2054
01:35:35,650 --> 01:35:33,350
effort to penetrate your your model of

2055
01:35:38,709 --> 01:35:35,660
reality which is I'm sitting in a study

2056
01:35:43,900 --> 01:35:38,719
made for humans you know it's kind of a

2057
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:43,910
square room lights are on that's my

2058
01:35:49,810 --> 01:35:47,810
reality and I can't walk through walls

2059
01:35:53,170 --> 01:35:49,820
but some people claim that they have

2060
01:35:55,750 --> 01:35:53,180
have done what does it do to your sense

2061
01:35:58,979 --> 01:35:55,760
of what's real lots of this powerful

2062
01:36:03,850 --> 01:35:58,989
stuff we're talking about absolutely

2063
01:36:07,689 --> 01:36:03,860
whatever do you think about the military

2064
01:36:13,150 --> 01:36:07,699
like black projects or you know secret

2065
01:36:17,220 --> 01:36:13,160
projects that have you know advanced

2066
01:36:20,709 --> 01:36:17,230
technology for instance a lot of people

2067
01:36:22,570 --> 01:36:20,719
are suggesting that it's possible that

2068
01:36:23,470 --> 01:36:22,580
all the black triangles that people see

2069
01:36:25,390 --> 01:36:23,480
forever

2070
01:36:29,590 --> 01:36:25,400
you know maybe all right you're right

2071
01:36:31,479 --> 01:36:29,600
all right our hours right yeah and the

2072
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:31,489
answer is always given we wouldn't test

2073
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:33,890
something over populated areas and the

2074
01:36:37,979 --> 01:36:36,170
people I know who lives near research

2075
01:36:41,709 --> 01:36:37,989
facilities say that's nonsense

2076
01:36:48,250 --> 01:36:41,719
because they see them fly over populated

2077
01:36:50,439 --> 01:36:48,260
areas so the least the Occam's razor

2078
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:50,449
approach to all the triangle settings is

2079
01:36:56,450 --> 01:36:53,010
that at least some of it

2080
01:37:00,410 --> 01:36:56,460
our technology's right we don't usually

2081
01:37:04,819 --> 01:37:00,420
know for another 20 years or you know or

2082
01:37:06,950 --> 01:37:04,829
so what we've got u2 is flying for a

2083
01:37:08,540 --> 01:37:06,960
long time stealth bombers were flying I

2084
01:37:11,419 --> 01:37:08,550
said when I lived near Hill Air Force

2085
01:37:13,490 --> 01:37:11,429
Base I would see some stealth plane come

2086
01:37:15,979 --> 01:37:13,500
in and I would I couldn't believe what I

2087
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:15,989
was saying I remember a 747 with the

2088
01:37:21,529 --> 01:37:18,570
Space Shuttle on its back landing right

2089
01:37:24,709 --> 01:37:21,539
in front of me I did at Hill and and

2090
01:37:26,569 --> 01:37:24,719
it's awesome and I would ask people on

2091
01:37:32,419 --> 01:37:26,579
the base what was it and they would say

2092
01:37:35,810 --> 01:37:32,429
what was what yeah

2093
01:37:38,180 --> 01:37:35,820
and when you were doing your research I

2094
01:37:40,899 --> 01:37:38,190
heard you say something about you know

2095
01:37:43,540 --> 01:37:40,909
reverse engineering not necessarily

2096
01:37:46,450 --> 01:37:43,550
alien crafts but you know some of the

2097
01:37:50,629 --> 01:37:46,460
technology that we've come up with is

2098
01:37:52,220 --> 01:37:50,639
almost hard to wrap your mind around I

2099
01:37:55,879 --> 01:37:52,230
heard you say it's right about fiber

2100
01:37:57,589 --> 01:37:55,889
optics you know right and there is that

2101
01:38:00,069 --> 01:37:57,599
is one of the topics that comes up

2102
01:38:04,459 --> 01:38:00,079
that's possible reverse engineering

2103
01:38:06,740 --> 01:38:04,469
mm-hmm that's right right and and when

2104
01:38:08,470 --> 01:38:06,750
we talked about that because I raised

2105
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:08,480
that with our group of wanting to

2106
01:38:15,919 --> 01:38:13,650
wanting to know about that we all admit

2107
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:15,929
it as I've been suggesting all along

2108
01:38:25,129 --> 01:38:21,570
none of us knows enough we don't know

2109
01:38:28,850 --> 01:38:25,139
enough to evaluate the train of events

2110
01:38:31,220 --> 01:38:28,860
and the materials passing on from one to

2111
01:38:33,470 --> 01:38:31,230
another it's through laboratories where

2112
01:38:35,319 --> 01:38:33,480
we would have to what we would have to

2113
01:38:37,700 --> 01:38:35,329
know we can't do the scientific

2114
01:38:40,310 --> 01:38:37,710
investigative detectives work and

2115
01:38:43,310 --> 01:38:40,320
therefore we can't say we can say it's

2116
01:38:47,660 --> 01:38:43,320
interesting some of it is coincidental

2117
01:38:50,209 --> 01:38:47,670
certainly some others it's justice but

2118
01:38:54,080 --> 01:38:50,219
without the data without a train of

2119
01:38:57,529 --> 01:38:54,090
trail of data to really show us that

2120
01:38:59,870 --> 01:38:57,539
this went from this place to that person

2121
01:39:03,259 --> 01:38:59,880
to that person and you watch the

2122
01:39:04,759 --> 01:39:03,269
technology emerge over time so often

2123
01:39:06,229 --> 01:39:04,769
when people suggested different things

2124
01:39:08,479 --> 01:39:06,239
where UFO technologies

2125
01:39:10,459 --> 01:39:08,489
when I have talked to people who know a

2126
01:39:14,450 --> 01:39:10,469
lot more about it than I do physicists

2127
01:39:16,940 --> 01:39:14,460
or chemists or material scientists they

2128
01:39:20,209 --> 01:39:16,950
generally have laughed and said well

2129
01:39:22,100 --> 01:39:20,219
that's just not that's just not true

2130
01:39:24,740 --> 01:39:22,110
this is what happened I was at Bell Labs

2131
01:39:28,700 --> 01:39:24,750
or I was at Northrop Grumman or I was at

2132
01:39:33,229 --> 01:39:28,710
skunk works and this is what happened

2133
01:39:36,050 --> 01:39:33,239
all right so you don't know what you

2134
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:36,060
don't know and and and those are good

2135
01:39:39,830 --> 01:39:38,010
speculative fun things I write a lot of

2136
01:39:42,200 --> 01:39:39,840
science fiction because it's the only

2137
01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:42,210
way I can get at these things but but I

2138
01:39:51,470 --> 01:39:44,610
don't know and I haven't seen anybody

2139
01:39:58,280 --> 01:39:51,480
convincingly who does right right if you

2140
01:40:00,800 --> 01:39:58,290
had to do the research today with just

2141
01:40:02,630 --> 01:40:00,810
using the internet you mentioned earlier

2142
01:40:06,140 --> 01:40:02,640
that there's a lot of you know

2143
01:40:08,390 --> 01:40:06,150
repetitive websites and things like that

2144
01:40:13,130 --> 01:40:08,400
how would you you know how would you

2145
01:40:15,590 --> 01:40:13,140
even do that as far as this topic goes I

2146
01:40:18,709 --> 01:40:15,600
know what I would do I'd love to teach a

2147
01:40:20,870 --> 01:40:18,719
course on it which would be the critical

2148
01:40:24,020 --> 01:40:20,880
thinking applied to the historical

2149
01:40:26,660 --> 01:40:24,030
analysis of UFO data and I would begin

2150
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:26,670
by going back to the 40s and 50s if you

2151
01:40:31,700 --> 01:40:29,010
want to do Foo Fighters then we have

2152
01:40:34,790 --> 01:40:31,710
auto material on Foo Fighters you can

2153
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:34,800
you can do that but go back to the first

2154
01:40:39,709 --> 01:40:37,650
accounts look at you know project sign

2155
01:40:42,890 --> 01:40:39,719
and project grudge and project Bluebook

2156
01:40:48,410 --> 01:40:42,900
and look at the historical accounts of

2157
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:48,420
how they were managed look at the

2158
01:40:54,490 --> 01:40:52,050
classic texts of the work I would

2159
01:40:57,500 --> 01:40:54,500
include our book but Jerry Clark has a

2160
01:40:58,520 --> 01:40:57,510
magnificent two volume encyclopedia on

2161
01:41:02,510 --> 01:40:58,530
this subject

2162
01:41:04,280 --> 01:41:02,520
Paul R Hill wrote a book that wasn't

2163
01:41:06,290 --> 01:41:04,290
published until his daughter did it

2164
01:41:08,810 --> 01:41:06,300
after his death called unconventional

2165
01:41:11,390 --> 01:41:08,820
flying objects he was at NASA and he

2166
01:41:12,830 --> 01:41:11,400
used the best physics he knew but they

2167
01:41:14,870 --> 01:41:12,840
had told him you're not to say anything

2168
01:41:17,060 --> 01:41:14,880
in relationship with NASA you can't

2169
01:41:19,970 --> 01:41:17,070
claim that this is NASA you can do what

2170
01:41:22,130 --> 01:41:19,980
you want as a person but this book

2171
01:41:27,550 --> 01:41:22,140
conventional flying objects is very good

2172
01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:27,560
the Richard Hall books the UFO evidence

2173
01:41:37,310 --> 01:41:33,650
the scientific experience of UFOs by

2174
01:41:41,180 --> 01:41:37,320
Allen Hynek as is one of the

2175
01:41:43,729 --> 01:41:41,190
foundational Roop belts book on UFOs

2176
01:41:47,240 --> 01:41:43,739
yeah the personal edition you know yeah

2177
01:41:49,550 --> 01:41:47,250
so so how does this is available you

2178
01:41:52,510 --> 01:41:49,560
start by going back to the basic text

2179
01:41:55,220 --> 01:41:52,520
and it's really no different than if you

2180
01:41:58,640 --> 01:41:55,230
well I mean let's get away from religion

2181
01:42:00,770 --> 01:41:58,650
let's just say literature you want to

2182
01:42:02,690 --> 01:42:00,780
know who wrote Shakespeare wasn't what

2183
01:42:04,130 --> 01:42:02,700
are Shakespeare's plays about well you

2184
01:42:06,979 --> 01:42:04,140
go back to the data you go back to the

2185
01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:06,989
folios you go back to the text and you

2186
01:42:13,070 --> 01:42:10,530
read what the best minds have said about

2187
01:42:17,120 --> 01:42:13,080
it the best critical analyses of the

2188
01:42:20,420 --> 01:42:17,130
text and you stay away from the nonsense

2189
01:42:22,280 --> 01:42:20,430
and jumping from website to website to

2190
01:42:24,950 --> 01:42:22,290
website I look at these interviews that

2191
01:42:26,420 --> 01:42:24,960
are up there and I think I just can't

2192
01:42:28,610 --> 01:42:26,430
waste another hour and a half listening

2193
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:28,620
to somebody say nothing as if he knows

2194
01:42:32,810 --> 01:42:31,410
what he's talking about it's the glory

2195
01:42:37,700 --> 01:42:32,820
of the internet but its glory of America

2196
01:42:39,740 --> 01:42:37,710
- anybody can say anything so go back to

2197
01:42:41,810 --> 01:42:39,750
the classic text the real there are

2198
01:42:43,970 --> 01:42:41,820
basic texts and if you don't have the

2199
01:42:46,130 --> 01:42:43,980
patience or the time to take for example

2200
01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:46,140
the six or eight or ten books that I

2201
01:42:53,540 --> 01:42:49,250
mentioned then you don't want to know

2202
01:42:56,630 --> 01:42:53,550
because to study something requires that

2203
01:42:58,490 --> 01:42:56,640
you study it and study takes time and

2204
01:43:01,580 --> 01:42:58,500
thoughtfulness and above all I said is

2205
01:43:04,010 --> 01:43:01,590
callate in my game by engaging with much

2206
01:43:07,340 --> 01:43:04,020
better Minds than mine and much more

2207
01:43:10,850 --> 01:43:07,350
experienced people than me you put

2208
01:43:14,060 --> 01:43:10,860
yourself in relationship a mentoring

2209
01:43:15,620 --> 01:43:14,070
relationship to the best people I've

2210
01:43:20,210 --> 01:43:15,630
watched hackers do this from the very

2211
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:20,220
beginning hackers had a meritocracy and

2212
01:43:23,690 --> 01:43:22,530
you would go online and you would do all

2213
01:43:25,640 --> 01:43:23,700
your homework first

2214
01:43:27,350 --> 01:43:25,650
you wouldn't say teach me how to hack

2215
01:43:28,850 --> 01:43:27,360
you would stay up all night with your

2216
01:43:30,860 --> 01:43:28,860
O'Reilly books and read everything you

2217
01:43:32,819 --> 01:43:30,870
could and then if you had an intelligent

2218
01:43:34,740 --> 01:43:32,829
question you would ask it with respect

2219
01:43:37,049 --> 01:43:34,750
and you get an answer and over time

2220
01:43:39,359 --> 01:43:37,059
you'd be allowed to participate in the

2221
01:43:41,700 --> 01:43:39,369
council's of the more superior more

2222
01:43:45,180 --> 01:43:41,710
elite hackers who knew what they were

2223
01:43:48,120 --> 01:43:45,190
doing there's questions pardon for

2224
01:43:49,890 --> 01:43:48,130
interrupting but we do have a we do have

2225
01:43:53,750 --> 01:43:49,900
a caller oh that I'd like to ask you a

2226
01:43:57,720 --> 01:43:56,609
hey Martin hi how are you have a

2227
01:44:00,450 --> 01:43:57,730
question for our guest

2228
01:44:02,790 --> 01:44:00,460
I do indeed this is Ryan from South

2229
01:44:05,939 --> 01:44:02,800
Carolina and taking my call

2230
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:05,949
I hope I didn't come in at an opportune

2231
01:44:14,850 --> 01:44:11,650
time here perfect time I guess I had a

2232
01:44:18,479 --> 01:44:14,860
question for you home since the topic is

2233
01:44:21,209 --> 01:44:18,489
UFOs and government you head of the

2234
01:44:24,930 --> 01:44:21,219
issue the issue I've always taken with

2235
01:44:26,819 --> 01:44:24,940
this is I have my doubts that the

2236
01:44:30,530 --> 01:44:26,829
government could cover this up and

2237
01:44:33,299 --> 01:44:30,540
follow me this you had mentioned about

2238
01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:33,309
them compartmentalizing it and

2239
01:44:38,100 --> 01:44:35,650
concealing from presidents so on and so

2240
01:44:40,979 --> 01:44:38,110
forth I just have my doubts that all

2241
01:44:43,290 --> 01:44:40,989
that would work I was wondering if you

2242
01:44:45,810 --> 01:44:43,300
had an ideas how they could do that I

2243
01:44:47,669 --> 01:44:45,820
mean for example in the Manhattan

2244
01:44:49,290 --> 01:44:47,679
Project and it didn't get much more

2245
01:44:51,500 --> 01:44:49,300
classified than that so that

2246
01:44:53,970 --> 01:44:51,510
intelligence Soviet intelligence

2247
01:44:56,430 --> 01:44:53,980
penetrated the Manhattan Project what

2248
01:44:58,979 --> 01:44:56,440
though how is it how is it not only that

2249
01:45:00,990 --> 01:44:58,989
our government has managed to conceal

2250
01:45:02,879 --> 01:45:01,000
this but all the other governments who

2251
01:45:06,330 --> 01:45:02,889
surely must know is managed to conceal

2252
01:45:08,520 --> 01:45:06,340
this as what as well well it's a really

2253
01:45:11,669 --> 01:45:08,530
good question and first of all as I say

2254
01:45:13,979 --> 01:45:11,679
the phenomena hides in plain sight

2255
01:45:18,060 --> 01:45:13,989
so when something is incontrovertibly

2256
01:45:19,410 --> 01:45:18,070
present as UFO phenomena has been then

2257
01:45:22,200 --> 01:45:19,420
what you have to do is spend multiple

2258
01:45:25,770 --> 01:45:22,210
narratives and cast doubt on which ones

2259
01:45:27,930 --> 01:45:25,780
are are true you know the story of the

2260
01:45:31,500 --> 01:45:27,940
gnome I'm innocent old folk tale about

2261
01:45:33,990 --> 01:45:31,510
the woodsmen who went into the forest

2262
01:45:36,540 --> 01:45:34,000
and he knew that the gnome knew under

2263
01:45:38,129 --> 01:45:36,550
which tree the gold was hidden and he

2264
01:45:39,390 --> 01:45:38,139
captured the gnome and he held him by

2265
01:45:42,060 --> 01:45:39,400
the scruff of neck and he said you got

2266
01:45:44,580 --> 01:45:42,070
to show me what what tree it is and he

2267
01:45:45,810 --> 01:45:44,590
gnomes can't I so he pointed out the

2268
01:45:47,910 --> 01:45:45,820
tree and

2269
01:45:49,799 --> 01:45:47,920
Woodsman took off his yellow scarf and

2270
01:45:51,959 --> 01:45:49,809
put it around the tree and he made the

2271
01:45:53,370 --> 01:45:51,969
gnome promise he would not remove the

2272
01:45:55,589 --> 01:45:53,380
scarf from the tree while he wasn't got

2273
01:45:57,180 --> 01:45:55,599
a shovel well he wasn't got a shovel

2274
01:45:59,609 --> 01:45:57,190
when he came back to Nome had kept his

2275
01:46:01,589 --> 01:45:59,619
promise he had not removed the scarf he

2276
01:46:04,410 --> 01:46:01,599
had simply tied a scarf around every

2277
01:46:07,290 --> 01:46:04,420
other tree in the forest ok so that's

2278
01:46:09,569 --> 01:46:07,300
the kind of disinformation that's very

2279
01:46:12,419 --> 01:46:09,579
very effective the resources of people

2280
01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:12,429
as I as I suggested who want to keep

2281
01:46:18,149 --> 01:46:16,090
something secret are prodigious the

2282
01:46:20,069 --> 01:46:18,159
other thing is UFO phenomena has not

2283
01:46:23,910 --> 01:46:20,079
been kept secret everybody knows about

2284
01:46:25,859 --> 01:46:23,920
it everybody who wants to look at these

2285
01:46:28,169 --> 01:46:25,869
stories and look at the credibility of

2286
01:46:29,910 --> 01:46:28,179
people online Leslie Kean and the press

2287
01:46:32,910 --> 01:46:29,920
conference in Washington and on and on

2288
01:46:35,459 --> 01:46:32,920
you listen to these people I don't mean

2289
01:46:38,339 --> 01:46:35,469
interrupt but I mean I'm sorry rub but I

2290
01:46:40,529 --> 01:46:38,349
mean look at something so I mean leaking

2291
01:46:42,629 --> 01:46:40,539
something really concrete let me give

2292
01:46:45,660 --> 01:46:42,639
you an example what I'm talking about it

2293
01:46:48,779 --> 01:46:45,670
was if you'll recall it was a Lebanese

2294
01:46:51,839 --> 01:46:48,789
newspaper that leaked the first aspect

2295
01:46:54,479 --> 01:46:51,849
of iran-contra and nobody is debating at

2296
01:46:56,699 --> 01:46:54,489
this point if that was actually it was

2297
01:46:59,580 --> 01:46:56,709
accurate we're still debating if mj-12

2298
01:47:01,020 --> 01:46:59,590
was real nobody's dating if Watergate

2299
01:47:03,149 --> 01:47:01,030
was real or not you know what I'm saying

2300
01:47:05,339 --> 01:47:03,159
I mean it yes like you know these leaks

2301
01:47:06,870 --> 01:47:05,349
come but they're there they're kind of

2302
01:47:08,279 --> 01:47:06,880
dead end type leaks you know what I'm

2303
01:47:09,959 --> 01:47:08,289
saying you know what I mean yes I know

2304
01:47:12,149 --> 01:47:09,969
exactly what you're saying and it's it's

2305
01:47:14,939 --> 01:47:12,159
a very effective strategy for making

2306
01:47:17,069 --> 01:47:14,949
sure that people don't get to the kind

2307
01:47:19,169 --> 01:47:17,079
of certainty that you're you're looking

2308
01:47:22,739 --> 01:47:19,179
for and you're right the Soviets could

2309
01:47:25,049 --> 01:47:22,749
penetrate our atomic Manhattan Project

2310
01:47:26,910 --> 01:47:25,059
but the Soviets were no slouches they

2311
01:47:29,580 --> 01:47:26,920
had extraordinary resources and they

2312
01:47:33,540 --> 01:47:29,590
were very very good at espionage and

2313
01:47:37,259 --> 01:47:33,550
they had a whole cadre of fifth

2314
01:47:38,640 --> 01:47:37,269
columnists in this country so it was

2315
01:47:39,870 --> 01:47:38,650
ultimately people who were very

2316
01:47:41,819 --> 01:47:39,880
sympathetic for the Russians to the

2317
01:47:43,669 --> 01:47:41,829
Communists and who were communists you

2318
01:47:46,830 --> 01:47:43,679
forget what it was like in the 30s here

2319
01:47:48,930 --> 01:47:46,840
who ultimately penetrated they didn't

2320
01:47:52,410 --> 01:47:48,940
have to bribe people or blackmail people

2321
01:47:56,129 --> 01:47:52,420
they had willing comrades who wanted to

2322
01:47:57,600 --> 01:47:56,139
help Russia get the bomb I don't think

2323
01:47:59,040 --> 01:47:57,610
we have anything like that

2324
01:48:02,850 --> 01:47:59,050
inside the small

2325
01:48:07,020 --> 01:48:02,860
Arina that were discussing I don't think

2326
01:48:10,920 --> 01:48:07,030
we have inside people and when some

2327
01:48:12,510 --> 01:48:10,930
insider theoretically an insider says

2328
01:48:17,850 --> 01:48:12,520
I'm going to tell the truth about all

2329
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:17,860
this it's isolated a datum alone has no

2330
01:48:22,860 --> 01:48:20,530
power to convince if that story about

2331
01:48:26,070 --> 01:48:22,870
iran-contra had only shown up in

2332
01:48:28,920 --> 01:48:26,080
Lebanese newspaper it would not exist as

2333
01:48:30,990 --> 01:48:28,930
an event but it was only because the

2334
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:31,000
accumulation of evidence from other

2335
01:48:36,000 --> 01:48:33,610
sources and the willingness and desire

2336
01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:36,010
to make it public because there was a

2337
01:48:40,200 --> 01:48:37,690
political opposition that wanted to

2338
01:48:44,190 --> 01:48:40,210
publicize it to bring down Reagan and

2339
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:44,200
Oliver North and and so on only because

2340
01:48:48,780 --> 01:48:47,170
all of those things conspired to want to

2341
01:48:52,530 --> 01:48:48,790
bring the story forward and the same

2342
01:48:55,020 --> 01:48:52,540
with Watergate water he was a huge event

2343
01:48:59,010 --> 01:48:55,030
well Stan Freeman kosis a cosmic

2344
01:49:02,820 --> 01:48:59,020
Watergate right it's kind of a stretch

2345
01:49:07,850 --> 01:49:02,830
but this is different operation and for

2346
01:49:13,350 --> 01:49:07,860
different reasons but we don't yet have

2347
01:49:16,410 --> 01:49:13,360
the accumulated multiple sources who can

2348
01:49:21,330 --> 01:49:16,420
compel the media which is the mouthpiece

2349
01:49:23,280 --> 01:49:21,340
of our society except in on websites and

2350
01:49:27,180 --> 01:49:23,290
the very fact that there are so many

2351
01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:27,190
crazy websites makes it very very

2352
01:49:31,620 --> 01:49:29,770
difficult to have any idea who's telling

2353
01:49:34,320 --> 01:49:31,630
the truth on there and you may have a

2354
01:49:36,420 --> 01:49:34,330
very honest compelling story from

2355
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:36,430
someone but you don't know who's tied

2356
01:49:39,810 --> 01:49:38,050
scarves are on all the trees you don't

2357
01:49:43,380 --> 01:49:39,820
know who's on the payroll you don't know

2358
01:49:46,200 --> 01:49:43,390
who just in a quid pro quo has been

2359
01:49:51,150 --> 01:49:46,210
willing to make a video of what they

2360
01:49:53,340 --> 01:49:51,160
said they saw in area 51 or underground

2361
01:49:55,050 --> 01:49:53,350
where the where the tall whites and the

2362
01:49:58,950 --> 01:49:55,060
little greys and the military are

2363
01:50:01,800 --> 01:49:58,960
working together it's just very very

2364
01:50:04,350 --> 01:50:01,810
difficult to nail it down so I'm

2365
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:04,360
suggesting that the reason it can be

2366
01:50:11,330 --> 01:50:06,010
done is because it has been done and

2367
01:50:12,959 --> 01:50:11,340
it's been done effectively all sent Ryan

2368
01:50:15,450 --> 01:50:12,969
yeah

2369
01:50:18,770 --> 01:50:15,460
big thank you for taking my call you bet

2370
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:18,780
all right talk to you later thanks a lot

2371
01:50:24,590 --> 01:50:21,730
so wish I could give them the inside

2372
01:50:27,270 --> 01:50:24,600
scoop but I ain't got it man you

2373
01:50:29,250 --> 01:50:27,280
mentioned the other book that you may be

2374
01:50:32,420 --> 01:50:29,260
working on can you go into a little more

2375
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:32,430
detail what that's going to be about uh

2376
01:50:37,770 --> 01:50:35,650
yeah different people are working on

2377
01:50:42,090 --> 01:50:37,780
different chapters and it is about the

2378
01:50:44,280 --> 01:50:42,100
phenomenon the phenomenon itself and it

2379
01:50:46,170 --> 01:50:44,290
will include for example close

2380
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:46,180
encounters of this kind the other kind

2381
01:50:52,470 --> 01:50:49,930
it will include physical trace cases it

2382
01:50:54,810 --> 01:50:52,480
will include different categories in

2383
01:50:57,300 --> 01:50:54,820
each of which we will present the very

2384
01:50:58,709 --> 01:50:57,310
best cases we've got but you know it's

2385
01:51:00,780 --> 01:50:58,719
like herding cats and get a bunch of you

2386
01:51:03,420 --> 01:51:00,790
apologists to finish your chapters my

2387
01:51:05,610 --> 01:51:03,430
contribution to that book is a single

2388
01:51:08,520 --> 01:51:05,620
chapter which is why it is so difficult

2389
01:51:11,610 --> 01:51:08,530
for people to take UFO seriously we've

2390
01:51:14,729 --> 01:51:11,620
touched on some of that tonight and I

2391
01:51:17,689 --> 01:51:14,739
was for the you know sociological and

2392
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:17,699
the psychological and political reasons

2393
01:51:23,790 --> 01:51:20,770
why it has been so difficult for people

2394
01:51:27,060 --> 01:51:23,800
to and answer the question you asked

2395
01:51:28,439 --> 01:51:27,070
that I responded to with Peter sterics

2396
01:51:31,620 --> 01:51:28,449
work

2397
01:51:33,780 --> 01:51:31,630
why don't scientists look at this well

2398
01:51:37,020 --> 01:51:33,790
we can look at why why that is there

2399
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:37,030
there are reasons in paradigms change

2400
01:51:41,700 --> 01:51:39,850
and once the paradigm changes everybody

2401
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:41,710
says oh I thought so all along you know

2402
01:51:46,760 --> 01:51:43,690
and you have to look at how those things

2403
01:51:49,470 --> 01:51:46,770
progress you know the doctor who first

2404
01:51:50,610 --> 01:51:49,480
at the end of you'd do an hour lecture

2405
01:51:52,530 --> 01:51:50,620
and at the end of it he'd say you know I

2406
01:51:54,930 --> 01:51:52,540
saw some interesting symptoms the other

2407
01:51:57,720 --> 01:51:54,940
day and he would describe what came to

2408
01:52:02,220 --> 01:51:57,730
be called child abuse and people would

2409
01:52:04,410 --> 01:52:02,230
sit there and say nothing and say

2410
01:52:06,240 --> 01:52:04,420
nothing to him afterward but he did it a

2411
01:52:08,610 --> 01:52:06,250
few times and somebody would come up to

2412
01:52:10,229 --> 01:52:08,620
him in the hall and say you know I had

2413
01:52:13,110 --> 01:52:10,239
somebody in the office the other day who

2414
01:52:15,540 --> 01:52:13,120
had those symptoms and pretty soon the

2415
01:52:19,020 --> 01:52:15,550
social contagion of knowledge took over

2416
01:52:20,459 --> 01:52:19,030
and one thing led to another and now you

2417
01:52:23,610 --> 01:52:20,469
ask somebody what child abuse is

2418
01:52:26,850 --> 01:52:23,620
everybody knows what child abuse is hmm

2419
01:52:28,890 --> 01:52:26,860
but you you go back and tell people to

2420
01:52:31,919 --> 01:52:28,900
years ago you know by the way the Roman

2421
01:52:33,780 --> 01:52:31,929
Catholic Church has hundreds of

2422
01:52:37,050 --> 01:52:33,790
pedophiles who are being protected from

2423
01:52:44,010 --> 01:52:37,060
criminal prosecution and the Catholic

2424
01:52:50,220 --> 01:52:44,020
would say no no ya can't be right but it

2425
01:52:51,930 --> 01:52:50,230
is yeah yes and what do you think you

2426
01:52:54,270 --> 01:52:51,940
know I'm pretty comfortable with the

2427
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:54,280
fact that in my lifetime I probably

2428
01:52:59,129 --> 01:52:57,010
won't know what's going on but do you

2429
01:53:01,290 --> 01:52:59,139
think that were any closer you know we

2430
01:53:03,810 --> 01:53:01,300
just got a couple minutes left here do

2431
01:53:08,000 --> 01:53:03,820
you think that you know I think that

2432
01:53:10,470 --> 01:53:08,010
were closer to accepting the fact that

2433
01:53:13,530 --> 01:53:10,480
we're most likely not alone but do you

2434
01:53:16,140 --> 01:53:13,540
think were any closer I think we're

2435
01:53:18,120 --> 01:53:16,150
right there but it's a chaotic system I

2436
01:53:20,129 --> 01:53:18,130
remember asking Edgar Mitchell before he

2437
01:53:22,709 --> 01:53:20,139
died that question what does it say he

2438
01:53:25,680 --> 01:53:22,719
says Richards chaotic system and it's

2439
01:53:27,810 --> 01:53:25,690
seizing and the bubble can burst in any

2440
01:53:29,609 --> 01:53:27,820
direction I wrote a novel that's came

2441
01:53:31,320 --> 01:53:29,619
out year before last called foam and

2442
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:31,330
it's about quantum foam and the

2443
01:53:35,810 --> 01:53:34,090
adjacency evolved intelligence and it's

2444
01:53:38,220 --> 01:53:35,820
about an alien has downsized

2445
01:53:42,689 --> 01:53:38,230
so he can come nurse and do improv it's

2446
01:53:47,359 --> 01:53:42,699
pretty funny but it's great book foam is

2447
01:53:49,859 --> 01:53:47,369
readers listeners is the name of it and

2448
01:53:52,020 --> 01:53:49,869
so what did I put in that book I took

2449
01:53:55,229 --> 01:53:52,030
the advice of a friend who was a

2450
01:53:56,820 --> 01:53:55,239
assistant deputy director of NSA who at

2451
01:53:59,220 --> 01:53:56,830
one point when we were working on an

2452
01:54:02,459 --> 01:53:59,230
ad-hoc project said you know you can't

2453
01:54:03,810 --> 01:54:02,469
discuss any of this out loud the stop

2454
01:54:05,669 --> 01:54:03,820
these unless you start writing fiction

2455
01:54:06,390 --> 01:54:05,679
fiction he said is the only way you can

2456
01:54:09,300 --> 01:54:06,400
tell the truth

2457
01:54:11,990 --> 01:54:09,310
so my collection of short stories called

2458
01:54:14,790 --> 01:54:12,000
mind games and my novel called foam is

2459
01:54:19,109 --> 01:54:14,800
loaded with truth

2460
01:54:23,280 --> 01:54:19,119
narrative because I could do it that way

2461
01:54:29,220 --> 01:54:23,290
and so when I when you asked me do I

2462
01:54:33,570 --> 01:54:29,230
know I know yeah I know I know some

2463
01:54:36,540 --> 01:54:33,580
things for sure and then I have a whole

2464
01:54:40,290 --> 01:54:36,550
bucket of of other stories that are

2465
01:54:42,870 --> 01:54:40,300
compelling but I can't prove we all do

2466
01:54:46,620 --> 01:54:42,880
in this domain and when is one of those

2467
01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:46,630
gonna pop in such a way that the

2468
01:54:51,930 --> 01:54:49,530
President or the Supreme Court judge or

2469
01:54:54,090 --> 01:54:51,940
somebody says something always had

2470
01:54:58,980 --> 01:54:54,100
governor's say we've hit Jimmy Carter

2471
01:55:01,920 --> 01:54:58,990
say it said Reagan say it but it doesn't

2472
01:55:04,470 --> 01:55:01,930
penetrate until the brew is ready until

2473
01:55:06,180 --> 01:55:04,480
it's ready to ripen when it's ready to

2474
01:55:08,910 --> 01:55:06,190
ripen you know the fruit comes off the

2475
01:55:11,540 --> 01:55:08,920
stem at a touch but it takes a long time

2476
01:55:14,430 --> 01:55:11,550
to ripen and who knows who knows when

2477
01:55:17,310 --> 01:55:14,440
when we're suddenly going to all know

2478
01:55:19,490 --> 01:55:17,320
and know that we know yeah that we are

2479
01:55:23,790 --> 01:55:19,500
part of an extraordinary universe

2480
01:55:27,330 --> 01:55:23,800
teeming with life yeah I don't know yeah

2481
01:55:28,800 --> 01:55:27,340
and I I believe we are thanks so much

2482
01:55:31,380 --> 01:55:28,810
it was it's been a real pleasure I

2483
01:55:33,120 --> 01:55:31,390
really enjoyed it a lot it's great to

2484
01:55:35,640 --> 01:55:33,130
talk to you I really appreciate your

2485
01:55:37,800 --> 01:55:35,650
asking me to talk to you for a while and

2486
01:55:40,110 --> 01:55:37,810
thank you very very very much

2487
01:55:42,870 --> 01:55:40,120
sure thing and people can get the book

2488
01:55:46,310 --> 01:55:42,880
on Amazon whether the book is available

2489
01:55:48,840 --> 01:55:46,320
on Amazon it's also available for Kindle

2490
01:55:52,410 --> 01:55:48,850
the book is I think about 30 bucks on

2491
01:55:55,170 --> 01:55:52,420
Amazon if they want one signed I can

2492
01:55:58,950 --> 01:55:55,180
sell it to him for the same price 35 for

2493
01:56:03,120 --> 01:55:58,960
hardcover 34 softcover annex hundreds

2494
01:56:05,790 --> 01:56:03,130
and one yeah yeah 600 pages it's a it's

2495
01:56:07,650 --> 01:56:05,800
really a bargain the publisher anomalus

2496
01:56:09,390 --> 01:56:07,660
books that he wanted this out here and

2497
01:56:11,730 --> 01:56:09,400
he did everything he could to cut the

2498
01:56:12,450 --> 01:56:11,740
margins to the bone so he's not making a

2499
01:56:16,460 --> 01:56:12,460
lot of money on it

2500
01:56:21,000 --> 01:56:16,470
Wow and your website is simply your name

2501
01:56:21,770 --> 01:56:21,010
theme worked oh sorry that's right yeah

2502
01:56:25,380 --> 01:56:21,780
mm-hmm

2503
01:56:28,560 --> 01:56:25,390
thi eme wor K s.com

2504
01:56:30,870 --> 01:56:28,570
yeah great website - all right thank you

2505
01:56:34,920 --> 01:56:30,880
thanks so much okay all right thank you

2506
01:56:37,150 --> 01:56:34,930
bye bye bye bye all right everyone

2507
01:56:40,180 --> 01:56:37,160
so that's look

2508
01:56:44,229 --> 01:56:40,190
I tried to stop that from happening that

2509
01:56:50,049 --> 01:56:47,080
I don't know why that happened so our

2510
01:56:52,989 --> 01:56:50,059
guest next week is chase klutz key she's

2511
01:56:57,160 --> 01:56:52,999
been on before she's always a fun guest

2512
01:56:59,739 --> 01:56:57,170
to have on and then after that I'm

2513
01:57:02,790 --> 01:56:59,749
heading up to shag Harbor and gonna do a

2514
01:57:06,209 --> 01:57:02,800
live show and that is on Saturday on the

2515
01:57:08,799 --> 01:57:06,219
30th of September and that'll be live on

2516
01:57:11,109 --> 01:57:08,809
YouTube live streaming on YouTube you

2517
01:57:15,459 --> 01:57:11,119
can also catch it as a podcast if you're

2518
01:57:17,049 --> 01:57:15,469
a member of our show subscriber that'll

2519
01:57:19,859 --> 01:57:17,059
be Saturday the 30th and that will be

2520
01:57:22,930 --> 01:57:19,869
5:30 to 7:30 now we're going to be

2521
01:57:25,239 --> 01:57:22,940
interviewing direct witnesses to the

2522
01:57:27,609 --> 01:57:25,249
shag Harbor event all those years ago

2523
01:57:31,450 --> 01:57:27,619
they're going to be there on location

2524
01:57:34,149 --> 01:57:31,460
and Don Leger and Chris who have written

2525
01:57:36,189 --> 01:57:34,159
books on it should be a lot of fun and

2526
01:57:37,660 --> 01:57:36,199
one of the listeners said they're going

2527
01:57:40,359 --> 01:57:37,670
to catch me there so I'm excited about

2528
01:57:43,359 --> 01:57:40,369
that and if anyone else is going there

2529
01:57:45,759 --> 01:57:43,369
please email me at Martin at podcast UFO

2530
01:57:48,669 --> 01:57:45,769
calm and we'll be sure to meet up while

2531
01:57:50,770 --> 01:57:48,679
we're there alright so thanks so much

2532
01:57:53,589 --> 01:57:50,780
everyone for listening and we'll be back

2533
01:58:00,590 --> 01:57:53,599
next week again with Chase klutz key at